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Shonumi Wrote:Maybe when they have products (either in the pipeline, announced, or in the store) that the target audience would want to buy?

They do. I highly doubt many of these users are using them for photo/video editing but rich people are sure buying them. Their target audience is not the masses, not yet. But like all new technology it has to be sold to rich people before the prices can come down. And waiting for people to start buying it before advertising doesn't make any sense. That defeats the point of advertising. People often don't even know that a product exists without advertising. And for the rich advertising is usually needed to convince them that they want it by touting its superior specs/features. Companies create the market through advertising, not the other way around.

Shonumi Wrote:That's the point I'm getting at, current 4K monitors are nowhere even close in the price/size range that ordinary folks would want, but everyone keeps trumpeting it up like 4K monitors will be at our computer desks next year. The reality is that it's going to be years before that even comes close to being true. If we were 2 or 3 years down the road, it wouldn't bother me so much if analysts started hyping up 4K monitors or if manufacturers started promoting even expensive models more openly. But everything about the market is way too premature for that. When you read as much as I do (200 KB of raw text I glean from various websites weekly, I save it to my Kindle), you start to realize how ridiculous this looks. Yes, people need to start talking about new tech sooner or later, but there's a difference between soon and too soon. Viable 4K monitors for everybody, and even well-off people outside of the "prosumer" group is too soon.
Shonumi Wrote:Which is why I'm miffed that everyone in analyst-land is making so much noise. I get that it's their job to make noise about anything, but like I said, it's incredibly too soon for them to start touting 4K technology for the average PC user.

Well when exactly are they supposed to start talking about it? After it's already cheap and widely available? Be reasonable. From what I've seen most of them aren't touting it as an already viable option for average users but are recognizing that it will eventually become cheap enough to become one. And therefore we should all start preparing for it.

And nobody really knows how far off this tech. is from mainstream adoption. I think your predictions on that are a bit pessimistic. We do however know that this is the future. Monitor resolution will inevitably increase at some point in the near future. Standardization of those new resolutions will inevitably happen as well. Now manufacturers have decided on what that next standard resolution will be. We're just waiting for the transition to happen and talking about how it will effect things in the meantime.

Zee530 Wrote:B-b-but FOUR THOUSAND PIXELS!!!!!

Surely you mean 8 million?

Out of curiosity let's break out the ole algebra and figure out what dimensions would actually give you 4000 total pixels.

Assuming a 16:9 aspect ratio with a total pixel count of 4000 that gives us:
9X=16Y
X*Y=4000

Use substitution
X=16Y/9
(16Y/9)Y=4000
(16Y^2)/9=4000
16Y^2=36000
Y^2=2250
Y=47.43

47.43X=4000
X=84.33

Y=47.43
X=84.33

So around 84 x 47 resolution. Not very high at all....

Edit:
Garteal Wrote:Oh Shonumi what excellent timing you have.

I don't get it what did I miss?

Zee530 Wrote:On a microscopic level water bodies do get dirty but it's so miniscule that the human eye probably won't notice it.

If that's the case then the suspended particles can easily be filtered out via mechanical filtration. Or settle on the bottom and form substrate. Small amounts of it probably won't do anything to the ecosystem. What compounds are the sand in your area made of?

Edit 2:
https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thread-ca...nds--33000
https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thread-ca...#pid301419

Oh.....yeah that is perfect timing.

ExtremeDude2 Wrote:Also what is this madness:
Zee530 Wrote:Starscream, come back to us, we need you.

He's a traitor to our new leader Shonumi. Didn't you know?
Gah! Trying to find low latency internet is proving impossible here. Verizon and Earthlink gave me the runaround with DSL availability, wasting my time only to find out I am apparently too far out for DSL. So there is still 4G right..? Not exactly, I could get a 4G signal if I invest in a costly directional wifi amplifier/antenna or go with Verizon Home Fusion which has a max cap of 20GB for the most expensive $90+ plan. Otherwise I am in 2G/3G country with maybe one bar for service. This really boils my blood, ffs where I live is not even that far outside the local city and villages that have access to Fios, Cable, DSL etc.. I am only like 6 - 8 miles outside the city and 4 - 6 outside the nearest village.

I still need get a new motherboard and cpu to get my system up and running which is going to take at least two or more months. It be nice to know if there is some kind of halfway decent internet service out here then once I get my system running I could look into getting internet service.
NaturalViolence Wrote:They do.

They don't. The key part is "target audience", and analysts have been looking past early adopters and touting it for the average PC user already. Unless the average PC user is ready to do computing on screens 30" and above (the smallest 4K monitor I've seen so far), current 4K monitors aren't geared towards the type of people who walk into Best Buy and buy any random computer the guys in retail say is fine. No one, to my knowledge, has even spoke a word about 4K monitors in the 20" range.

NaturalViolence Wrote:I highly doubt many of these users are using them for photo/video editing but rich people are sure buying them.

You act like rich people and people who professionally edit photos and videos are in two different categories. Trust me, I've been around enough Mac users in my lifetime (mostly webdesigners, graphic artists, and digital media majors) to tell you that there's much overlap between the two. I'm also pretty sure Canon would not call their recently announced 4K monitor "professional use" for video production if they didn't have at least an inkling of the types of customers buying such a product.

NaturalViolence Wrote:But like all new technology it has to be sold to rich people before the prices can come down.

Rich people or businesses, technically. Though in the US, businesses can be people.

NaturalViolence Wrote:And waiting for people to start buying it before advertising doesn't make any sense.

And it doesn't make sense to start advertising years before a product will actually reach an audience. Sure you can get the word out early and get people thinking about it, but you run the risk of having people eventually ignore this "brand new" tech that came out 5 years ago - tech that still no one has access to - the earlier you hype it up before it widely becomes available. Advertising isn't exactly a time-insensitive industry. As soon as a product (finished or otherwise) gains some relevance to an audience, that's the time to advertize it. For prosumers, businesses, and "rich" individuals, all the talk surrounding 4K monitors is fine as far as I'm concerned, since 4K monitors are perfectly relevant to them. It's just greatly exacerbating to see similar talk going on with regards to ordinary consumers, where I feel the relevance is severely limited by large screen sizes (and price, but my sticking point against 4K monitors is chiefly size). Like I said, there's a difference between soon and too soon.

NaturalViolence Wrote:Well when exactly are they supposed to start talking about it? After it's already cheap and widely available?

I already specified an acceptable timeframe: when manufacturers announce that something is in the works or that they're considering making 4K monitors in the 20" range. How hard is it to wait to start hyping up 4K monitors for everyone until there's some substance, even the slightest, to that hype? 2 or 3 years down the road, I assume we'd be on our way (in some capacity) to 4K monitors in the 20" range, which is why I suggested that timeframe for waiting. It doesn't have to be cheap or widely available, but there should at least be some solid indication that manufacturers are going in that direction. As of now, the best we can say is that manufacturers eventually will be going in that direction, but that's really too vague and too early to start touting 4K monitors for the masses.

NaturalViolence Wrote:And therefore we should all start preparing for it.

And as a consumer, I'll start preparing for it when they at least plan to even look into 20" 4K monitors. That's the point at which this technology becomes relevant to me. So far, they haven't said much. This is to be expected given how young 4K monitors are, but still, I'm not going to care until models with reasonable screen sizes start being announced.

NaturalViolence Wrote:I think your predictions on that are a bit pessimistic.

2-3 years is pessimistic? I would call it conservative or realistic, but not that.
So apparently I now get 4g a my house and school Big Grin
NaturalViolence Wrote:What compounds are the sand in your area made of?

I have absolutely no idea how to go about this, i assume i'll need a microscope and knowledge of the atomic makeup of whatever i see down there. Jokes aside, i pulled out a research paper from 2008 that covers compounds found in my city, it covered selected areas, none mine but they all had the same compounds but just in different quantities so i'll assume it's the same throughout the city.

Calcium, Magnesium, Manganese, Iron, Copper and Zinc, of which calcium, magnesium and Iron are in much higher abundance than the rest, let me know if you need the raw numbers (lazy!)
I'm back!

...

People from day to day make me realize that this place is just a waste of time with lots of people asking the same questions over and over again and virtually no new information ever appearing here. Even worse yet, I find myself facepalming hard* at least once every day when I'm going through the new threads. I guess I might as well just leave the forums for good and just idle around on IRC. Am I missing something? Here's your chance to convince me to stay, if you like :p

* "hard" as in so hard that it's really not fun anymore but just annoying.
(11-15-2013, 12:02 AM)neobrain Wrote: [ -> ]I'm back!

...

People from day to day make me realize that this place is just a waste of time with lots of people asking the same questions over and over again and virtually no new information ever appearing here. Even worse yet, I find myself facepalming hard* at least once every day when I'm going through the new threads. I guess I might as well just leave the forums for good and just idle around on IRC. Am I missing something? Here's your chance to convince me to stay, if you like :p

* "hard" as in so hard that it's really not fun anymore but just annoying.
Well most people that are not regulars do come here to get help and not the opposite (to help others). Sometimes though you can find some valuable info here and there if you can filter it (at least i did Tongue for the ini files). Generally speaking though the forums are better suited for the users to get help and not for the developers to do the same.
@Neobrain: Everyone knows that devs just come here to laugh at us silly mortals. Just keep doing that. Tongue Ok seriously, forums are designed so that you can just come in, enjoy them until you are bored, then leave. You don't need to leave it entirely or be in it full on, just take it at your own pace.



@ Everyone

AARRRGGGHHH why is SSD shopping so bloody hard. Too much data and not enough data all at the same time! OK, I'm buying my first SSD. The 3bit per cell NAND is starting to arrive, and since SSD performance is built around parallelism, the top performing drives for 3 bit NAND is going to be the 500-512GB class. But the price per gig isn't going anywhere fast sooooo, yea, for the next couple of years prices for the top performers is going to be much higher than it is now. As good a time to buy as any. I can get a 240-256GB class SSD and get top performance while hovering around $200 price. The question is, WHICH DRIVE?!

There are three contenders that have my eye. My goal price is $200.


The Samsung 840 Pro 256GB ($230) - The king. Every test top of the pack or the champ. Every site every metric every score top top top. But it's a bit over my price goal... I guess it's the fall back in case the others don't work out.

Note that the 840 not-pro is off the table because of meh performance and losing tons of blocks early in the techreport torture endurance test. It's a tri-cell experiment design, figures.


Corsair Neutron GTX 240GB ($195) - A pretty weird beast. It has very good performance in almost all tests, right up there with the 840 Pro. Except... it has some weirdness. Anandtech says it has poor performance in idle power consumption (don't care), small transfer size performance, and low queue depth sequential reads (whatever that is). The low queue depth sequential reads test has it shoot straight to the bottom. Yet it's strong in every other test! Apparently it's a work around, and anandtech says that's not really a normal thing an OS would run into. Still, small transfer size performance is an issue here as well, and they also stress that it's something that isn't encountered in normal use.

Techreport is extremely thorough, and they do not such any issue with what Anandtech picked up. They do however pick up a really nasty caveat: Random write performance with HD Tune. It osillates between 100-150MBps and 450MBps. OUCH. Sandforce controllers do it too but never that bad. But they stressed that HDTune uses an unpartitioned drive, when done with another test on a partitioned drive the random writes were right at the top of the pack as normal. Oye.

Overall I don't know what to make of this. It gets high praise everywhere, yet it has these weird situations where it does terrible. Everyone stresses that it is not normal situations that you'd encounter during normal use. But still... oye. There is another issue with them: they are a brand new controller from a relative unknown. Fortunately Techreport is doing a torture endurance test, and the Neutrons are scoring AWESOMELY with it. So that's good. As it's $35 cheaper than the 840 Pro, I'm really tempted by this thing, but the information out there worries me a bit.


Intel 335 series 240GB ($180) - This one is just... oye. Techreport loves it. Test after test praise praise praise, beating out even the 840 Pro in places! And a super low price too boot! But everyone else? They find it has "no performance gains whatsoever" and "why would you buy this? For the perceived quality of the Intel brand.". Ouch. Considering it is just the 320 with 20nm NAND, I guess everyone else is right, still, why would techreport's tests give the 335 better scores than the 320? Should I just not trust techreport now? Oye.



Sooooo, anyone mind giving me their two cents about this stuff? Any experience? It would be nice to get an opinion from someone that knows something...
(11-15-2013, 12:02 AM)neobrain Wrote: [ -> ]I'm back!

...

People from day to day make me realize that this place is just a waste of time with lots of people asking the same questions over and over again and virtually no new information ever appearing here. Even worse yet, I find myself facepalming hard* at least once every day when I'm going through the new threads. I guess I might as well just leave the forums for good and just idle around on IRC. Am I missing something? Here's your chance to convince me to stay, if you like :p

* "hard" as in so hard that it's really not fun anymore but just annoying.
If you're not here just to waste time, then you're probably right that it's not worth coming here.
(11-15-2013, 07:13 PM)MaJoR Wrote: [ -> ]@Neobrain: Everyone knows that devs just come here to laugh at us silly mortals. Just keep doing that. Tongue Ok seriously, forums are designed so that you can just come in, enjoy them until you are bored, then leave. You don't need to leave it entirely or be in it full on, just take it at your own pace.



@ Everyone

AARRRGGGHHH why is SSD shopping so bloody hard. Too much data and not enough data all at the same time! OK, I'm buying my first SSD. The 3bit per cell NAND is starting to arrive, and since SSD performance is built around parallelism, the top performing drives for 3 bit NAND is going to be the 500-512GB class. But the price per gig isn't going anywhere fast sooooo, yea, for the next couple of years prices for the top performers is going to be much higher than it is now. As good a time to buy as any. I can get a 240-256GB class SSD and get top performance while hovering around $200 price. The question is, WHICH DRIVE?!

There are three contenders that have my eye. My goal price is $200.


The Samsung 840 Pro 256GB ($230) - The king. Every test top of the pack or the champ. Every site every metric every score top top top. But it's a bit over my price goal... I guess it's the fall back in case the others don't work out.

Note that the 840 not-pro is off the table because of meh performance and losing tons of blocks early in the techreport torture endurance test. It's a tri-cell experiment design, figures.


Corsair Neutron GTX 240GB ($195) - A pretty weird beast. It has very good performance in almost all tests, right up there with the 840 Pro. Except... it has some weirdness. Anandtech says it has poor performance in idle power consumption (don't care), small transfer size performance, and low queue depth sequential reads (whatever that is). The low queue depth sequential reads test has it shoot straight to the bottom. Yet it's strong in every other test! Apparently it's a work around, and anandtech says that's not really a normal thing an OS would run into. Still, small transfer size performance is an issue here as well, and they also stress that it's something that isn't encountered in normal use.

Techreport is extremely thorough, and they do not such any issue with what Anandtech picked up. They do however pick up a really nasty caveat: Random write performance with HD Tune. It osillates between 100-150MBps and 450MBps. OUCH. Sandforce controllers do it too but never that bad. But they stressed that HDTune uses an unpartitioned drive, when done with another test on a partitioned drive the random writes were right at the top of the pack as normal. Oye.

Overall I don't know what to make of this. It gets high praise everywhere, yet it has these weird situations where it does terrible. Everyone stresses that it is not normal situations that you'd encounter during normal use. But still... oye. There is another issue with them: they are a brand new controller from a relative unknown. Fortunately Techreport is doing a torture endurance test, and the Neutrons are scoring AWESOMELY with it. So that's good. As it's $35 cheaper than the 840 Pro, I'm really tempted by this thing, but the information out there worries me a bit.


Intel 335 series 240GB ($180) - This one is just... oye. Techreport loves it. Test after test praise praise praise, beating out even the 840 Pro in places! And a super low price too boot! But everyone else? They find it has "no performance gains whatsoever" and "why would you buy this? For the perceived quality of the Intel brand.". Ouch. Considering it is just the 320 with 20nm NAND, I guess everyone else is right, still, why would techreport's tests give the 335 better scores than the 320? Should I just not trust techreport now? Oye.



Sooooo, anyone mind giving me their two cents about this stuff? Any experience? It would be nice to get an opinion from someone that knows something...

About ssd drives, every single ssd is much better than an hdd drive and you won't be able to notice the difference between them easily outside of benchmarks. If money isn't the issue get the best, if it is though i would pick the cheapest, you will still get the much better performance and have more money left in your pocket.
To give you an example the cheap Intel drive has 450 MB/sec write performance and the expensive samsung 520MB/. Thing is (apart that the difference is small) there is no way it will be fed data at such rates to notice the difference except if you moved data between two ssd drives. If you move data from a hdd to your ssd, the hdd will be the bottleneck and the data won't be written at such high rates.
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