(11-15-2015, 09:43 PM)Link_to_the_past Wrote: [ -> ]You generalize about people, you can't generalize about a religion, it's teachings are specific and there is the opposite of cooexistence in islam's teachings, what is there to discuss about it? Yes not all muslims are like that but everyone who takes islam's teachings by heart is. That's not the same with christianity or other religions, nowhere does it says kill the infidels or something like that in christianity. What christians do yet is another story...
There is no opposite. Islam is all about coexistence, it has been in the past, but unfortunately today the people that give it a bad name are omitting huge parts of the teachings and/or are following their own version of it.
The people who take Islam teachings by heart would never kill an innocent, discriminate other religions or do anything of the sort.
Killing anyone innocently in Islam is one of the biggest sin you can commit. The extremists that blow themselves up are directly against the teachings since suicide is forbidden.
(11-15-2015, 10:35 PM)Zee530 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-15-2015, 09:43 PM)Link_to_the_past Wrote: [ -> ] (11-15-2015, 09:21 PM)Garteal Wrote: [ -> ]^ I don't like how you generalize and try to create facts with the little you know about the religion. It's really easy for the media to set people up against a religion by explicitly mentioning it everywhere when something bad happens.
You generalize about people, you can't generalize about a religion, it's teachings are specific and there is the opposite of cooexistence in islam's teachings, what is there to discuss about it? Yes not all muslims are like that but everyone who takes islam's teachings by heart is. That's not the same with christianity or other religions, nowhere does it says kill the infidels or something like that in christianity. What christians do yet is another story...
I am a Muslim, no idea what you're talking about, what teachings are exactly against coexistence?
Fight against those who
(1) believe not in Allah,(2) nor in the
Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been
forbidden by Allah and His Messenger(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (
Jews and
Christians), until they pay the
Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [29]
http://quran.com/9/28-30
That's one example. That fight until they are subdued and pay taxes to you is all about peaceful coexistance in your interpretation?
(11-16-2015, 12:02 AM)Link_to_the_past Wrote: [ -> ] (11-15-2015, 10:35 PM)Zee530 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-15-2015, 09:43 PM)Link_to_the_past Wrote: [ -> ] (11-15-2015, 09:21 PM)Garteal Wrote: [ -> ]^ I don't like how you generalize and try to create facts with the little you know about the religion. It's really easy for the media to set people up against a religion by explicitly mentioning it everywhere when something bad happens.
You generalize about people, you can't generalize about a religion, it's teachings are specific and there is the opposite of cooexistence in islam's teachings, what is there to discuss about it? Yes not all muslims are like that but everyone who takes islam's teachings by heart is. That's not the same with christianity or other religions, nowhere does it says kill the infidels or something like that in christianity. What christians do yet is another story...
I am a Muslim, no idea what you're talking about, what teachings are exactly against coexistence?
Fight against those who
(1) believe not in Allah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [29]
http://quran.com/9/28-30
That's one example. That fight until they are subdued and pay taxes to you is all about peaceful coexistance in your interpretation?
You've completely missed the context there, this one chapter in the Quran is well known as it is a chapter that discusses the war, in fact, every chapter in the Quran starts with the saying: "In the name of God, the most beneficent, the most merciful", except for this one chapter because it discusses war and war alone. The context behind this is that the people of Mecca who were not following Islam decided to start to abuse and later on torture the muslims there, so much so that the muslims had to run away leaving their families and properties behind, they took refuge in a near by city called Medinah, but despite this the people of Mecca still organized armies to attack the muslims and as such they responded in kind, this verse was revealed in response to that.
Aside from this there are many verses in the Quran that make mention to live in peaceful coexistence with others as long as they do not mean you harm or try to drive you away from your homes for the sole reason of the religion you have chosen.
Really, what you've done there is just randomly chosen one verse you believe to be negative and base your entire view of Islam on it without trying to find out the reasoning behind it, which is what most of the world is doing right now, its really akin to maybe someone playing Witcher 3 cause its one of the best games out there right now and maybe someone happens to walk in on you in a scene that is erotic and instantly without asking you what it was about decide to conclude that you are some kind of pervert.
Bible Wrote:If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Bible Wrote:Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
The Bible has a great deal of very not nice things in it too! Just because Christianity chooses to not let that apply to them (
despite this) doesn't change that there are a lot of "gotcha" lines to use.
Bible Wrote:Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Bible Wrote:They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Bible Wrote:Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
I'm just saying, you shouldn't judge a religion based solely on naughty passages...
.
There are radicals in all religions (looking at you Westboro). It just so happens that the Islamic radicals are currently the most aggressive, towards literally everyone else that doesn't practice their religion.
(11-16-2015, 12:02 AM)Link_to_the_past Wrote: [ -> ]Fight against those who
(1) believe not in Allah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [29]
http://quran.com/9/28-30
That's one example. That fight until they are subdued and pay taxes to you is all about peaceful coexistance in your interpretation?
You can't just quote something out of context and use it as an example.
These verses were revealed distinctly (or sometimes in larger portions) in response to (certain) events and certainly aren't meant to be interpreted out of context.
Back in the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) every religion was coexisting in peace under his leadership. Muslims, Christians, Jews and whatever else there was.
(11-16-2015, 01:58 AM)MaJoR Wrote: [ -> ]Bible Wrote:If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Â Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. Â You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. Â And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Â (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Bible Wrote:Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. Â In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. Â If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Â Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Â Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. Â That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Â Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Â Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. Â He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. Â "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Â (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
The Bible has a great deal of very not nice things in it too! Just because Christianity chooses to not let that apply to them (despite this) doesn't change that there are a lot of "gotcha" lines to use.
Bible Wrote:Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. Â (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Bible Wrote:They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. Â (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Bible Wrote:Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. Â (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
I'm just saying, you shouldn't judge a religion based solely on naughty passages...
.
All those are passages from the old testament which is the basis of the Jewish religion, there is nothing like that in the new testament which is the base of Christianity. Of course you can say that makes christianity seem less credible as a religion if you dismiss the old testament, but we don't discuss the credibility here but it's hate speech.
As for the out of context material, is still clear hate speech for other religions, that doesn't change. You can say they were bullied or whatever at the time, the history of Islam afterwards is not of being bullied by others but the opposite. I really wonder how much that passage doesn't play any part in it.
The problem is not religion itself. The problem is how religion is understood, taught and used.
You know, most of these guys have never opened the quran. They have never read it
(the same way most of us have a bible in a corner but have never had a look to it
).
Most of them can't even read it. So they hear, what others have heared, from others who have heared...
Solutions have to be found. But this is very very complicated
EDIT: "guys" refers to terrorists/radicalized people. Not to muslims in general of course
(11-16-2015, 04:51 AM)LordVador Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is not religion itself. The problem is how religion is understood, taught and used.
You know, most of these guys have never opened the quran. They have never read it
(the same way most of us have a bible in a corner but have never had a look to it ).
Most of them can't even read it. So they hear, what others have heared, from others who have heared...
Solutions have to be found. But this is very very complicated
EDIT: "guys" refers to terrorists/radicalized people. Not to muslims in general of course
The most peaceful solution is to continue with the coexistance and the migration of muslims in europe, hoping that they will not be radical and become mediocre muslims or even try to turn them away into atheism and other religions (in a way to make them adapt to the way of living here). I don't see that working well so far judging from the results, if someone believes otherwise that muslims can adopt well into the way of living here i would like some good proof about it. Pesonally i see demands for Saria (islamic law) to be above local law, demands for local customs to be changed to not offend them and ghettos. That doesn't seem that they adapt well but the opposite, that we adapt to their way of living.
How about we all change the subject before someone ends up getting banned for being racist. It's fairly obvious at this point that nothing good can come of this debate.