Hi there,
I am in a position where i'm looking to put together a new PC, primarily to run Dolphin at 3x resolution (AA and AF a bonus, not required). This would include F-Zero GX, which I know is more taxing than most games. I am not too worried about Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader, but it'd be nice to be able to run it at 60fps even at 1x resolution, ideally 2x. I know even on the most powerful of PC's it's susceptible to slowdown, so I fully understand that.
The reason i'm thinking of trying something new, is I have already been playing around in Linux with Dolphin, using a DELL Optiplex 7010 SFF. This machine has an i7-3770 inside and 12gb RAM. I also popped in a GT 1030 (GDDR5).
However, much to my surprise, although most games work very well indeed, no matter whether I use OpenGL or Vulkan, I get bad framedrops in F-Zero GX on the Big Blue stage. To clarify I was using the latest proprietary drivers for NVIDIA (not nouveau!) However, if I run Dolphin using DX11/12 in Windows, performance is way better on this particular level.
On my Linux build, everything is default, and i've tried the resolution between 1x and 3x. The main options I changed were to use async ubershaders with compile before starting set. I am using the latest dev build.
Doing a little bit of investigation by running Dolphin in a window, and a terminal running htop next to it, I can clearly see that when the audio cuts out and the framerate drops, the CPU usage is going over 100% for the cores which Dolphin is using. This occurs using both the OpenGL driver or Vulkan driver. So, i'm thinking the CPU just isn't good enough for the task. In Windows using DX11/12, performance is definitely better with the GT 1030, but i'd prefer to stick with Linux as i'm using RetroPie very happily for all other systems i'm interested in, plus I have a nice frontend set up already which I don't want to move away from.
I am wondering whether the i7-3770 is really up to the job even though it has a good base clock - it just doesn't perform in the way that i'd expect it to, maybe maybe i'm asking too much out of a higher end but ultimately 3rd gen CPU. it is pre-haswell after all and quite some years old. I thought it would still be good enough though!
I've since returned the GT 1030 as my return window was closing with Amazon, and now i'm looking to go down another route.
The machine above I acquired for a very small sum, so I haven't lost out and can possibly use it for another purpose - but i'm feeling a bit like i'd rather make an investment in some newer (more modern) gear which has a better chance of running Dolphin at a steady 60fps at 1080p with no hassle (720p is fine for the hardest games to emulate). Even though the 7010 SFF is quite small, it would be even better to have something smaller still.
To sum up, after research, because size is a factor, i'm looking at an ASrock Deskmini A300, and pairing it with one of the Ryzen APUs (3200g or 3400g). Also, I understand AMD support under Linux is a bit stronger than NVIDIA (I may be wrong here), and that the integrated GPU is somewhere around the 750Ti speed, a touch faster than the 1030 I had before.
This barebones unit looks to be great value - and is seriously tiny (which is great for where it needs to go). I'm happy to invest in such a build - if it will run Dolphin better than the 7010 w/ i7-3770.
However i'm a bit worried I might run into this same problem again. I'm hoping not because in the 3400g's case, the base and turbo clock is higher than the i7-3770, not to mention i'll be using much faster RAM (I am aware I should be using 3000/3200 speed RAM to make the most of the integrated GPU).
Does anyone have any experience with running Dolphin on Linux specifically, using one of these APU's? If so, what is the performance like? Do taxing games such as F-Zero GX run without any slowdown at 1080p?
I've watched a couple of videos from ETA Prime on YouTube which indicates it should work well, but then again, I thought an i7-3770 w/ GT1030 would breeze through F-Zero GX @ 1080p in Linux - only to be disappointed with the outcome.
Any thoughts or assistance would be really appreciated before I make a purchase!
Thanks!
(02-29-2020, 01:40 AM)movisman Wrote: [ -> ]Hi there,
I am in a position where i'm looking to put together a new PC, primarily to run Dolphin at 3x resolution (AA and AF a bonus, not required). This would include F-Zero GX, which I know is more taxing than most games. I am not too worried about Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader, but it'd be nice to be able to run it at 60fps even at 1x resolution, ideally 2x. I know even on the most powerful of PC's it's susceptible to slowdown, so I fully understand that.
The reason i'm thinking of trying something new, is I have already been playing around in Linux with Dolphin, using a DELL Optiplex 7010 SFF. This machine has an i7-3770 inside and 12gb RAM. I also popped in a GT 1030 (GDDR5).
However, much to my surprise, although most games work very well indeed, no matter whether I use OpenGL or Vulkan, I get bad framedrops in F-Zero GX on the Big Blue stage. To clarify I was using the latest proprietary drivers for NVIDIA (not nouveau!) However, if I run Dolphin using DX11/12 in Windows, performance is way better on this particular level.
On my Linux build, everything is default, and i've tried the resolution between 1x and 3x. The main options I changed were to use async ubershaders with compile before starting set. I am using the latest dev build.
Doing a little bit of investigation by running Dolphin in a window, and a terminal running htop next to it, I can clearly see that when the audio cuts out and the framerate drops, the CPU usage is going over 100% for the cores which Dolphin is using. This occurs using both the OpenGL driver or Vulkan driver. So, i'm thinking the CPU just isn't good enough for the task. In Windows using DX11/12, performance is definitely better with the GT 1030, but i'd prefer to stick with Linux as i'm using RetroPie very happily for all other systems i'm interested in, plus I have a nice frontend set up already which I don't want to move away from.
I am wondering whether the i7-3770 is really up to the job even though it has a good base clock - it just doesn't perform in the way that i'd expect it to, maybe maybe i'm asking too much out of a higher end but ultimately 3rd gen CPU. it is pre-haswell after all and quite some years old. I thought it would still be good enough though!
I've since returned the GT 1030 as my return window was closing with Amazon, and now i'm looking to go down another route.
The machine above I acquired for a very small sum, so I haven't lost out and can possibly use it for another purpose - but i'm feeling a bit like i'd rather make an investment in some newer (more modern) gear which has a better chance of running Dolphin at a steady 60fps at 1080p with no hassle (720p is fine for the hardest games to emulate). Even though the 7010 SFF is quite small, it would be even better to have something smaller still.
To sum up, after research, because size is a factor, i'm looking at an ASrock Deskmini A300, and pairing it with one of the Ryzen APUs (3200g or 3400g). Also, I understand AMD support under Linux is a bit stronger than NVIDIA (I may be wrong here), and that the integrated GPU is somewhere around the 750Ti speed, a touch faster than the 1030 I had before.
This barebones unit looks to be great value - and is seriously tiny (which is great for where it needs to go). I'm happy to invest in such a build - if it will run Dolphin better than the 7010 w/ i7-3770.
However i'm a bit worried I might run into this same problem again. I'm hoping not because in the 3400g's case, the base and turbo clock is higher than the i7-3770, not to mention i'll be using much faster RAM (I am aware I should be using 3000/3200 speed RAM to make the most of the integrated GPU).
Does anyone have any experience with running Dolphin on Linux specifically, using one of these APU's? If so, what is the performance like? Do taxing games such as F-Zero GX run without any slowdown at 1080p?
I've watched a couple of videos from ETA Prime on YouTube which indicates it should work well, but then again, I thought an i7-3770 w/ GT1030 would breeze through F-Zero GX @ 1080p in Linux - only to be disappointed with the outcome.
Any thoughts or assistance would be really appreciated before I make a purchase!
Thanks!
Although I do not have any experience with Dolphin on Linux in recent years, I do know that anything past 4th gen Intel and anything past Ryzen gained a huge boost to emulation. For GPU's I still prefer nVidia over AMD in Linux, just because of the (arguably) better closed source drivers. You are right about driver support in the Open Source versions of the drivers though.
Also anything past a 750ti will run most games flawlessly at 1080p and the Vega11 is about 15% slower in most benchmarks:
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nv...7vsm401440
Hope this helps.
(02-29-2020, 11:15 PM)mstreurman Wrote: [ -> ]Although I do not have any experience with Dolphin on Linux in recent years, I do know that anything past 4th gen Intel and anything past Ryzen gained a huge boost to emulation. For GPU's I still prefer nVidia over AMD in Linux, just because of the (arguably) better closed source drivers. You are right about driver support in the Open Source versions of the drivers though.
Also anything past a 750ti will run most games flawlessly at 1080p and the Vega11 is about 15% slower in most benchmarks: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nv...7vsm401440
Hope this helps.
Hi there, thanks a lot for the reply.
So, do you agree that even though the i7-3770 i've got in the 7010 is a higher end processor (of it's time), because it's 3rd gen it will likely be the culprit behind the issues I mention above? From my limited testing, this is what I found, especially as I was running a GT 1030 with it which should be more than good enough on the GPU side. And doing a fair bit of research, I did read from multiple sources that apparently anything from Haswell onwards gained a large boost in performance for emulation.
Regarding the GPU, the 1030 I was using looks to be slightly weaker than the 750ti in benchmarks, so the 1030 is probably quite close to Vega 11 in terms of performance. It sounds like the Vega 11 would probably be good enough to run games at 1080p/60, but it's a question of whether the Ryzen is up to the task.
The 3400g, with a base clock of 3.7ghz and a turbo of 4.2ghz - you'd think it should handle it fine, plus it is a very modern processor. But then again, the i7-3770 I have is still 3.4ghz base / 3.9ghz turbo and struggles on the more taxing games - I think a contributing factor here is the fact it is old 3rd gen architecture though.
I am thinking this ASrock DeskMini 300 paired with a Ryzen 2400g or 3400g + 2x4gb DDR4 RAM @ 3000/3200 should be fine, but i'm obviously concerned about investing only to be disappointed and not much better off in performance than I am now (for Dolphin). Obviously the DeskMini has other benefits aside from performance (low noise, tiny form factor etc).
Don't look at clock speed when comparing across generations/brands. Look at the IPC and single core performance on a site like CPUBoss or UserBenchmark. The 3400G should be OK and would perform better than the 2400G.
(03-01-2020, 11:22 AM)KHg8m3r Wrote: [ -> ]Don't look at clock speed when comparing across generations/brands. Look at the IPC and single core performance on a site like CPUBoss or UserBenchmark. The 3400G should be OK and would perform better than the 2400G.
Thanks for the reply. I will do some more research on IPC, but single core performance of the 3400g on the popular benchmark sites doesn't appear to be that much higher than the i7-3770 that I already have (+14% on userbenchmark, and a single thread rating of 2098 vs 2068 on cpubenchmark/passmark). Makes me slightly concerned that I may run into the same issue if I build a little machine like this. Unless, of course there are other factors which give the Ryzen advantages in different areas.
I just don't want to jump in and invest without doing the proper research and asking the community for advice. Unfortunately I don't have the budget to go 'maximum' (nor the space hence the need for tiny or SFF form factor, ideally quiet). But 1080p/60 (no AA/AF) should be achievable really without going overboard.
It's just a case of going for the right components. The Ryzen 3400g / DeskMini A300 setup seems like a good option, but only if it is an improvement over the 3rd gen I was testing with previously. I'll definitely be running Linux for this build though.
The other option which came up is a tiny form factor Lenovo ThinkCentre m75q-1, which runs a slightly lower clocked Ryzen 3400GE to hit 35w TDP. They usually have 1x8gb configuration so would need another module to take advantage of dual channel, but they look good. These sometimes appear on eBay for a very reasonable price too. Just another option, albeit not 'quite' as punchy as the Ryzen 3400G / DeskMini A300 combo (maybe -10% or so at a guess), but not far off.
Any other ideas?
(03-01-2020, 08:39 PM)movisman Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for the reply. I will do some more research on IPC, but single core performance of the 3400g on the popular benchmark sites doesn't appear to be that much higher than the i7-3770 that I already have (+14% on userbenchmark, and a single thread rating of 2098 vs 2068 on cpubenchmark/passmark). Makes me slightly concerned that I may run into the same issue if I build a little machine like this. Unless, of course there are other factors which give the Ryzen advantages in different areas.
I just don't want to jump in and invest without doing the proper research and asking the community for advice. Unfortunately I don't have the budget to go 'maximum' (nor the space hence the need for tiny or SFF form factor, ideally quiet). But 1080p/60 (no AA/AF) should be achievable really without going overboard.
It's just a case of going for the right components. The Ryzen 3400g / DeskMini A300 setup seems like a good option, but only if it is an improvement over the 3rd gen I was testing with previously. I'll definitely be running Linux for this build though.
The other option which came up is a tiny form factor Lenovo ThinkCentre m75q-1, which runs a slightly lower clocked Ryzen 3400GE to hit 35w TDP. They usually have 1x8gb configuration so would need another module to take advantage of dual channel, but they look good. These sometimes appear on eBay for a very reasonable price too. Just another option, albeit not 'quite' as punchy as the Ryzen 3400G / DeskMini A300 combo (maybe -10% or so at a guess), but not far off.
Any other ideas?
I don't know your budget, but you could try and build one yourself from scratch?
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/3r7BFG > something like this would set you back around 600USD, which is about 75USD more than a DeskMini with CPU+RAM+nVME Storage in my country. I selected the bang for buck components in this one though, so you could save a couple of bucks on most of the hardware. The case I chose is because of all the ports and buttons at the front of the case instead of to the side or top, so it is easier to put the machine inside something and still have access to them.
(03-04-2020, 07:43 PM)mstreurman Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know your budget, but you could try and build one yourself from scratch?
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/3r7BFG > something like this would set you back around 600USD, which is about 75USD more than a DeskMini with CPU+RAM+nVME Storage in my country. I selected the bang for buck components in this one though, so you could save a couple of bucks on most of the hardware. The case I chose is because of all the ports and buttons at the front of the case instead of to the side or top, so it is easier to put the machine inside something and still have access to them.
Hi,
Thanks a lot for the reply and for taking the time to spec something out for us
Yeah, I looked into a scratch build, technically no problem with this, but I was having trouble finding a case small enough for where it needs to go. The Silverstone one you mentioned is great, but it is literally about 2-3cm too high for horizontal orientation.
Here in the UK, the motherboard is just over £100 alone, and the DeskMini A300 can be had for around £130 currently, which includes the mobo, case and PSU. So that is probably the cheaper route, although I appreciate doing a build from scratch could potentially be way more flexible in terms of adding a separate GPU later etc, if desired.
I have a spare SATA SSD (as well as an m2 drive, not nVME) which would be good enough for an emulation PC, so I will probably utilise that.
If I can find a case small enough which can technically house a small/low profile GPU for only a bit more cost, I might be tempted to go down that route for the flexibility. But I am having trouble finding something which will fit my setup. The DeskMini is great for it's size, hence why it's very tempting. And with the right cooler, it should be quiet too.
In terms of dimensions, for my rack, if orientated vertically, basically H30cm, D30cm, W10cm is fine, as it can sit next to my vinyl collection. Horizontally it needs to be more cube shaped (like the DeskMini) but not higher than around 12-13cm because of shelf restrictions.
I will keep researching cases and see what I can find.
The most important question remains though, would such a setup surpass this Optiplex 7010 SFF w/i7-3770 which I already have? The graphics card I had in it (1030 DDR5) went back as it didn't really improve things. As above, all monitoring seemed to show the CPU bottlenecking whenever slowdown was occurring, so figured I simply need something more modern to run games like F-Zero GX. Bear in mind i'm using Linux as well, so restricted to OpenGL and Vulkan.
I am very curious to know if a 3200G or 3400G will handle things like F-Zero GX @ 1080p with ease.
Thanks!
Just to be clear, whatever performance issue you're having with F-Zero GX is either related to the CPU or some bug with Linux. The GTX 750 Ti already were overkill for Dolphin and could push even 4k in most games, so the GT 1030 definitely weren't the culprit and the Vega 11, except perhaps for possible memory bandwidth issues if you push it really hard, shouldn't have any issues either...
(03-04-2020, 11:46 PM)mbc07 Wrote: [ -> ]Just to be clear, whatever performance issue you're having with F-Zero GX is either related to the CPU or some bug with Linux. The GTX 750 Ti already were overkill for Dolphin and could push even 4k in most games, so the GT 1030 definitely weren't the culprit and the Vega 11, except perhaps for possible memory bandwidth issues if you push it really hard, shouldn't have any issues either...
Absolutely, I completely agree with you. This is why I sent the 1030 back, because to be honest performance didn't drop off that much (it did a bit in taxing areas) when going back to the integrated graphics.
In addition, when I started running htop to see the CPU usage, every time F-Zero GX encountered any slowdown, the cores that Dolphin uses would go above 100%. If you encountered an area of the track which has regular slowdown, if you stop your vehicle at that point and stay still in an area of slowdown, you could see the CPU really struggling. So whether this is a bug in Dolphin in Linux, an emulator optimisation thing, or simply the processor is not able to cope remains to be seen. But my thoughts were that it was a CPU bottleneck.
So, from a GPU perspective, I know that a Vega 8 or Vega 11 should be ok for 1080p, Vega 11 is a pretty close to a 750 Ti I believe in terms of performance - but it's the CPU on the 3200g and 3400g that i'm most curious about, eg. will these new CPU's handle Dolphin much better than the old i7-3770 CPU, even though the clock speeds aren't hugely different?
(03-05-2020, 01:36 AM)movisman Wrote: [ -> ]So, from a GPU perspective, I know that a Vega 8 or Vega 11 should be ok for 1080p, Vega 11 is a pretty close to a 750 Ti I believe in terms of performance - but it's the CPU on the 3200g and 3400g that i'm most curious about, eg. will these new CPU's handle Dolphin much better than the old i7-3770 CPU, even though the clock speeds aren't hugely different?
They should. I mean, any reasonably clocked Intel Haswell CPU or newer should handle nearly anything you can throw at Dolphin (e.g. the overclocked Pentium G3258 from my signature, despite being just a dual core CPU, never experienced any slowdown in Dolphin -- although I can't tell if that would remain true for Factor 5 games like Rogue Squadron).
Considering current Zen 2 AMD CPUs allegedly surpasses the IPC of current Coffee Lake Intel CPUs, and taking into account that Coffee Lake is several generations newer than Haswell, Ryzen 3000 CPUs should be more than enough to run virtually anything in Dolphin flawlessly...