Why asynchronous audio should not have been removed....and an idea.
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03-30-2014, 04:08 PM
(03-30-2014, 03:34 PM)mudlord Wrote:(03-30-2014, 07:44 AM)Wally123 Wrote: No need to be rude. I should inform you that I do have Asperger's Syndrome and I am the type that sometimes over-explains things quite often. Not really meant as one but duly noted...won't happen again...and my only question to you now is this...Are you the very same mudlord who worked on RiceVideo for N64 for a while? 03-30-2014, 08:10 PM
Wally, I gonna level with you here, but it requires you to come to terms with a few things first. I'm not saying you have to, and I don't want you to lie and say you agree if you don't.
1: Your first post in this thread is full of buzzwords, bullshit and absolute insanity. Now, I don't think you're an unintelligent person, you write in complete sentences with proper grammar which puts you above a lot of people in the world. I don't know why you went through so much effort to try and prove a point, but you missed the mark completely. Whether you knew it at the time, or were just in over your head with stuff you didn't understand, the first post of this thread has no real value in the conversation. 2: Asynchronous audio is less accurate You need to understand that you're not asking for them to increase accuracy, that's where you went wrong. You got it into your head somehow through very convoluted means that asynchronous = more accurate. It doesn't. Don't try to argue it, we already know the truth. The thing is, you don't need to argue that it's more accurate. There is a counter argument against it that doesn't involve bullshitting around. 3: You're asking for a very hard to implement feature. The old asynchronous audio is full of hacks to make it work; and causes ton of game issues, while accurate audio emulation works just by doing what it's supposed to do. Simply putting an option in for the old code would cause months of work, cause tons of headaches and problems for developers, and make it harder to improve the good audio emulation. Do you really think they're that unreasonable? That if they could just plug in the old code without any repercussions and give users a choice, they wouldn't to spite the users? 4: Asynchronous audio does have userside benefits Developers get little/no benefit for having asynchronous audio. They're making the emulator to emulate the games, for the most part they're not in it to play video games at full speed. That being said, some people are okay with a game not running full speed as long as they still get a good experience. Audio is part of the experience. Delroth has said before and will probably say again that if someone made an asynchronous HLE option that met Dolphin's coding standards that there would be no issue merging it. It's just that doing it is a ton of work, it has absolutely no benefits to the quality of emulation, and will likely cause problems down the road when the proper audio gets upgrades. 5: Users have a limited perspective. Sometimes users don't know what's good for them as well. Asynchronous audio caused problems in literally hundreds of games, crashes, no audio, broken audio, hangs, and music freezes. Heck, look at Mario Galaxy 1/2 up until Zelda HLE was synchronous. You either dealt with the hangs and couldn't beat the game (easily) or used the LLE plugin which is a multitude slower and even I can't get running full speed on a fairly modern computer. Thanks to having an ACCURATE HLE option, now I can play the game just fine. For many years, these games were basically unplayable in HLE due to being left behind due to how hard it would be to update the code and make it more accurate. Users asking for asynchronous audio don't realize that it means not being able to trust HLE audio again. It took me months to realize just how great it was to have, just how bad the old way of handling audio was. Can it be better? Probably. Can it be perfect and trustable to always work? Doubtful. Games rely on audio being synchronous for the timings of events. Without those timings being synced to what the game expects, there will always be a risk of a game suddenly crashing with no recourse. That's my thoughts on it, at least. I hope this helps you see more of what I'm seeing in this particular situation. And why the reaction was so livid from the Dolphin familiars. 03-31-2014, 12:00 AM
(03-30-2014, 03:34 PM)mudlord Wrote:(03-30-2014, 07:44 AM)Wally123 Wrote: No need to be rude. I should inform you that I do have Asperger's Syndrome and I am the type that sometimes over-explains things quite often. Sorry to interject on this, but his post is practically a copy/paste of practically everyone else on the internet I've met with aspergers. Hell, I almost wrote something like that myself one time.* It's not really a disability, either. It just makes social interaction without making someone want to kill you a lot harder. But, as I've said to everyone else who said this stuff, it's not really an excuse. If someone as dull-witted as myself can power through it*, I'm pretty sure you can as well. * = I'm sure SOMEONE out there realized that I might be some sort of autist by now, really. Actually, I might have pulled the "I have asperger's" line here; there are a few moments I remember "almost" posting that, and then, when I look back, I actually DID post it.
in a perfect world we would all be piles of sand with no ability to form coherent bodies of body
(03-30-2014, 08:10 PM)JMC47 Wrote: Wally, I gonna level with you here, but it requires you to come to terms with a few things first. I'm not saying you have to, and I don't want you to lie and say you agree if you don't. I see your point. And I am glad you gave me a respectful answer. I do have a couple of ideas if you'll hear me out. This is purely hypothetical...but say we do implement the asynchronous option as game specific (in Game Properties "core" box) to speed up some games...would it be possible to to implement some sort of CPU wait (as in for the computer...not the console) to sync with the audio as that seems to help certain audio plugins for ePSXe? Another idea I have, and this is outside of async/sync audio, is that what if someone added a graphics , fps limiter, and DSP menu to the game properties window? It would make it easier to use different specific settings for different games. Just add a couple of tabs to the game properties menu. 03-31-2014, 03:44 AM
"Implementing" async audio as a game properties option does absolutely nothing different for the underlying code. All it does is slightly change where it appears for the users, and how they'd enable it; everything else would be all but unchanged. It doesn't make it easier or feasible for the developers to implement. Since UI stuff is trivial compared to the actual implementation, I don't think this is really going to help your argument at all.
You'd have to ask someone else about the CPU wait thing; it's probably not feasible, but I'm not a programmer that really understands how the CPU emulation here works. I don't think you can just tell the CPU to wait and not expect to break things, but someone more knowledgeable than me would need to answer. The last point about adding stuff to the game properties window gets more into Dolphin's UI a bit, and is mostly unrelated to the main issue at hand. 03-31-2014, 05:17 AM
This CPU wait is here called "throttle by audio", just select audio as framelimiter.
03-31-2014, 06:02 AM
neobrain Wrote:Yeah, I think the OP got the point, so everyone may stop bullying someone who tried to bring up a topic he deemed important. I'll delete and warn off any following posts like that. Bullying? You've got to admit anyone who posts that much nonsense in one post, implies it's all factual, and does zero research on any of it is basically openly inviting themselves to be rediculed by the community at large. I mean he got DELROTH of all people to post the kind of WoT posts you normally see me doing. That means he must have generated some serious rage. Hell there are still large portions of nonsense in his post that nobody has gone over yet. kinkinkijkin Wrote:But, crashing when you plug in your headphones has absolutely nothing to do with DAC issues. The product of DAC issues would be garbled audio. Also, DAC issues would only happen when plugging in headphones if you're switching between a digital and analog connection, like S/PDIF to 3.5mm phone. RCA is analog, unless you are running an audio studio computer, which I would doubt, considering your level of knowledge on these subjects. That's actually mostly correct even though you crossed it out. His issue is most likely with his audio drivers. I can't be sure since he has given us zero information about it. kinkinkijkin Wrote:Or you should get a sound system with an optional redirect to headphones. Normally, if audio goes through HDMI, it was still sent through the motherboard audio device. Now, iirc, HDMI is digital audio anyways, so it would have the chance of alleviating your problem, but it can sometimes be more expensive to redirect HDMI audio without invoking the wrath of HDCP than getting a soundcard/replacing your digital audio controller, all of which is less expensive than running down your only audio hardware that you have at home because you're too lazy to do anything about it (my situation). Then again, if you have a screen/TV with a headphone jack, it's entirely okay. If audio goes through HDMI it doesn't touch the motherboards audio circuits at all. The data is copied by the drivers from RAM into a buffer in or near the GPU and then from there streamed over HDMI. He should be running all of his audio through a digital connection (coaxial spdif, optical spdif, or hdmi) to his receiver. Assuming his stereo receiver has a headphone port (almost all of them do) he should be plugging his headphones into that instead of the PC. If he continues to use the A/V receiver getting a proper audio card would do little to improve his system. Wally123 Wrote:However...I do realize I need a decent sound card...I need that regardless to aleviate my CPU from that burden. I do not have integrated graphics... No you don't. Your integrated audio uses little to no cpu resources and hardware accelerated audio has been dead for almost a decade now. Wally123 Wrote:Are you the very same mudlord who worked on RiceVideo for N64 for a while? Yes he is. kinkinkijkin Wrote:Sorry to interject on this, but his post is practically a copy/paste of practically everyone else on the internet I've met with aspergers. Hell, I almost wrote something like that myself one time.* It's not really a disability, either. It just makes social interaction without making someone want to kill you a lot harder. I know at least 2 other regulars here that have it too (I won't name names for obvious reasons) and they manage just fine. And because it can be managed (although not completely cured) through medication and self control that's why people tend to frown on others using it as an excuse for things (this thread being a perfect example).
"Normally if given a choice between doing something and nothing, I’d choose to do nothing. But I would do something if it helps someone else do nothing. I’d work all night if it meant nothing got done."
-Ron Swanson "I shall be a good politician, even if it kills me. Or if it kills anyone else for that matter. " -Mark Antony 03-31-2014, 06:22 AM
I crossed it out because I hadn't taken into account that by "RCA" he might be referring to S/PDIF coaxial, as I already said, which would mean that he WOULD be switching from a digital to audio connection, a thing that I said would be the only case in which he'd be right about it being the DAC. It wouldn't really surprise me if it were the DAC either, onboard audio solutions are all delicate and crappy, with very, very few exceptions
And, since I don't work with the micro/software side of audio, I didn't actually know that about HDMI. Though, he would be helped by a new soundcard if he also has S/PDIF optical inputs on his stereo receiver, since optical S/PDIF is superior to (if only more fragile than) coaxial S/PDIF. The thing is, though, optical cables cannot be bent too much or they will snap and become useless. Also, Creative still releases audio cards with hardware acceleration for some features of OpenAL, and only when it's through OpenAL. It's almost like they technically own the rights to OpenAL.
in a perfect world we would all be piles of sand with no ability to form coherent bodies of body
03-31-2014, 06:29 AM
Fixed something...or at least found a revision that works flawlessly in audio for Metroid prime...4.0-1340...I set my DSP setting to XAudio and then in the game's properties I unticked "Synchronize GPU Thread"..and this is under Direct3D for video...
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