This doesn't really need the spoiler tag but meh, might as well! Also this is getting kind of off-topic, so I'll only respond if I feel like I really need to respond ...like this one.

NaturalViolence Wrote:Do you get offended when the men are nearly impossibly ripped in video games too?

*sigh* That has nothing to do with women. The super common "super ripped male blowing stuff up" trope is a male power fantasy, and it is very common in the west. It is made by men, for men, for male consumption, and it is not targeting women at all. Of course ripped male power fantasies aren't necessarily misogynistic, but that trope is typically mated with women used as rewards for the buff manly man to obtain and consume. THAT'S misogyny, especially since it implies that to be manly like the power fantasy, one has to treat women as objects.

NaturalViolence Wrote:I'm sorry but it seems logical that any kind of visual media would want their characters to look attractive/good.

You go into quite a ramble there, but I was by no means saying characters can't look good! If you read my post, I went through three points about what "fanservice" is. Just making characters look nice is not called fanservice, even if the character is female. The question is, is she a PERSON with her own personality and opinions (and ability to say no and mean it), and does her design, posing, and camera treat her like a person, or an object. You can have a character with large breasts (human anatomically correct at least please) and they still be a great character.

When you have a character that has been distorted to inhumane levels to exaggerate features men like (often to the point where they defy physics and hinder her ability to MOVE), who is posed and shown in highly suggestive positions, and has no personality other than to be available for male consumption... that's not a character, that's not a person, that's a thing to be consumed. And that is still very common.

And so we're clear, this isn't harmless. What do you think creates misogyny, what do you think spreads the concept that women are just objects and don't deserve to be treated as people, showing people that women are objects over and over and over: FANSERVICE!

Through multiple exposures throughout culture, it's no longer a weird exception, it becomes accepted as normal. There was a time not that long ago where it was difficult to find a game or film that didn't treat women as objects, and where finding a story with a female protagonist (outside of "girly" content specifically made for women that men considered beneath them) was impossible. What happens when this is established, then have men and women interacting day to day, such as in the work place? These cultural views will influence personal interactions, both in men treating women more as objects, trying to force women into boundaries and/or trying to consume/exploit them, and in women ourselves just trying to survive and not push it because we feel we don't deserve to be treated as human. That's misogyny!

And well, there's only one way to improve culture, and that is to point out the uncomfortable truth that everyone wants to ignore. So people like me have to make a bit of noise and point this out.

Just to understand this correctly. What you're saying is that the character isn't inherently misogynistic but instead could reinforce or create misogynistic beliefs? Personally, I like to think people aren't that easily influenced, especially by works of fiction. It's possible I'm just naive though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Invader Wrote:Personally, I like to think people aren't that easily influenced, especially by works of fiction

Did by any chance miss the 2016 US election​ /s

LMAO. Let me live in my bubble. No one does bad things and it's safe here. 

Well, culture is the sum of what is exposed to people, that's basically all it is. It's what people have been exposed to over and over and over, it's just normal to them. As such, it affects everyone within that culture subconsciously, usually without them noticing or thinking about it, because why would they think about it? So it's not that a single character is so bad; like, one character in a world of great representative content is not really going to affect anything. The problem is that it's so common, it's normal, it is a part of our culture, and this influences everyone within it. And it influences the media targeting that culture and it can start a feedback loop of awful. That's bad.

By calling attention to these things and making people think about the things they ignore, people like me who want to make this situation better are trying to shift the norm. If poor representation becomes less common and better representation becomes more common, poor representation will no longer be "normal". This will just lead to more characters being treated as people instead of tropes or objects, and media will have higher quality narratives as a result. Win win! Our culture has already gotten WAY better about this compared to 30 years or so ago, but there's still more to do!

Huh. It seems are goals are the same then. I look at it the opposite way though. I always saw media as a reflection of culture rather than a part of it. I thought of it as circular in that way. Basically what I mean by that is making it clear that these viewpoints aren't acceptable in the real world should be priority #1. Our society has a problem with excusing/defending sexual misconduct in general, Looking at you political leaders and celebs. If it's frowned upon that much IRL then writers, devs, whatever wouldn't even THINK of putting something like that in their media in the first place. What I mean to say by this is I don't think anyone at Monolith had any ill-intent but were just mirroring things they've seen elsewhere.

I had to write a paper in HS about how rap music is or isn't killing the black community (not even kidding). Pretty much the same thought process. If you want to stop negative behavior, media isn't the source it's the people. Any intelligent person can make the right choice. I've been told I give people too much credit though.

Oh absolutely! It's kind of both ways really. Media reflects the culture and influences culture, and culture reflects media and influences media. Because, quite directly, media is just a part of culture. I certainly wasn't saying to focus entirely on media or anything, but, media is a lot easier to call out than nebulous bits of society. Like, with culture in general, it's hard to point at specific things, and without specifics its harder for people to understand and take seriously. But media is a part of our culture, it's widespread enough to influence culture and people are already aware of it, and they are limited experiences that is easy to point things out of. So we can point at the reflection of bad culture to call attention to the wider problems with society at large, and help change the people within that culture for the better!

And of course, it works both ways, so improving representation in media helps improve wider culture too. Using the feedback loop for good!

I certainly don't think MonolithSoft had any nefarious intentions. It reflects the culture it was made in ...but as a released product it is now culture itself so it is influencing culture at large for the worst. It's unfortunate.