Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

(06-29-2019, 11:47 AM)MayImilae Wrote: [ -> ]So it appears the post that image was taken from (on forums.redflagdeals.com, super credible) has been removed. Hmm.

Meanwhile, on Raspberry Pi's website...

Spoiler: (Show Spoiler)

So here's where the confusion is coming from: the hardware could theoretically support OpenGL ES 3.2. THEORETICALLY. But the video driver currently does not support OpenGL ES 3.2, because the video driver can't make compliance with 3.1, let alone 3.2. The one who made their driver stack has left Broadcom, so Broadcom is not going to put in the effort to change this. It's possible at some point in the future that someone outside broadcom will go through the effort to bring OpenGL ES 3.2 or Vulkan support to the driver, but it would have to be a random outsider, and there's no telling when or IF that will happen. Currently no one is working on it.

Do not purchase a Pi 4 with the expectation that this situation will change. Enjoy the Pi 4 for what it is, and be happy if it improves!

Also do not expect that Vulkan, if it does come, will magically make the Pi 4 run Dolphin games at full speed. That's not happening.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1560/1473/files/Inside_Raspberry_Pi_4.pdf
You'll find the document there, or if you scroll down the link in my earlier post, the picture I took was the page of importance from what I was talking about. There is also a Videocore 5 drivers that do support 3.2 and are currently being modified to support videocore 6. Yeah it's new hardware and the official support could be better, but it's also a raspberry pi piece of hardware, that community has shown that they are willing to put in the work, hope that document is interesting to you, I wasn't trying to hoodwink you, just found that and figured I'd share. 

That is from pi3g.com, a Pi reseller unaffiliated with raspberry or broadcom who is trying to get you to buy Pi 4s from them. So let's keep that in mind that they have incentive to fudge things a little.

So if you look closely, that PDF doesn't actually disagree with what I've been talking about! If you go to the spec sheet they provide for the Pi 4 (page 3 of that PDF), it says "OpenGL ES 3.0 graphics". 3.0, not 3.2. That is a perfect example of the discrepancy between hardware support and software support. The hardware could do OpenGL ES 3.2. But the video driver only supports 3.0.

We run into this a lot on Android devices. For example, toooons of Android phones ship with 64-bit CPUs, yet have 32-bit userspaces. These devices theoretically could run Dolphin, but they can't due to the userspace shipped with it. Lots of users buy these, hoping for an update that will let them run Dolphin, but it almost never comes.

So yea, if you want to buy a Pi 4, buy one for what it is, not what it might be!

(06-29-2019, 02:24 AM)bomblord Wrote: [ -> ]ETA Prime did a video and early performance is not looking good. Seemingly nothing he tested was able to use the GPU (4k video flat out broke, 1080p native video stuttered heavily, youtube 360p video in full screen stuttered heavily).

Most notably in regards to emulation is PS1 games were running at half-speed which is well... half the speed of the Pi3.

That has zero to do with the hardware though.

(06-30-2019, 12:35 PM)myownfriend Wrote: [ -> ]That has zero to do with the hardware though.

Yes - but hardware is kinda useless if it's not possible to use it.

It may be in a few years the software has caught up - but then the pi4 hardware will be even more outdated. Electronic hardware doesn't tend to get cheaper or "better" with age, so may as well wait until the complete product you want is available before buying instead of keeping it in a cupboard for some possible future performance.

At absolute peak possible hardware performance, the pi4 will be somewhere between a "bit" and a "lot" slower than the Tegra X1 - which puts a hard cap on what people could possibly expect.

About this discussion about what version of OpenGLES and Vulkan the hardware can support, I got info from a more official and reliable source:

I found at khronos.org that VideoCore V (the previous version of RP4's GPU) is OpenGLES3.1 conformant
https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-products/opengles
...so we can assume VideoCore VI is at least hardware capable with ES3.1.

Also in the same website VideoCore VI appears as Vulkan 1.1 capable:
https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-products

Although for now the open drivers only supports GL ES 3.0.

This will benefit many emulators for PI, which most relies little in the GPU due to the huge limitations of VC4, which only can use ES2.0.
Although I don't believe RP4 might run most Gamecube games at fullspeed, maybe, just maybe, could run the lightest games like Animal Crossing with some virtual underclock.

Has anyone mentioned thermal throttling yet? I see a bunch of discussion about the GPU, but from what I saw on the write-up from Tom's Hardware, the Pi4 throttles down its CPU when under a big enough load. This was without an OC too, just stock clocks. That kind of throttling seems like a bigger issue than the GPU, as that's harder to overcome without resorting to additional hardware, and it affects other emulators besides Dolphin.

(07-01-2019, 02:11 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]Has anyone mentioned thermal throttling yet? I see a bunch of discussion about the GPU, but from what I saw on the write-up from Tom's Hardware, the Pi4 throttles down its CPU when under a big enough load. This was without an OC too, just stock clocks. That kind of throttling seems like a bigger issue than the GPU, as that's harder to overcome without resorting to additional hardware, and it affects other emulators besides Dolphin.

Personally, I have a Flirc case on the way (the entire metal case acts as a heatsink) and there are a few active cooling solutions for the old Pi that should work fine on the new one. Out of the box though, yea it'll throttle a bit under heavy load according to reviews.

(07-01-2019, 02:11 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]Has anyone mentioned thermal throttling yet? I see a bunch of discussion about the GPU, but from what I saw on the write-up from Tom's Hardware, the Pi4 throttles down its CPU when under a big enough load. This was without an OC too, just stock clocks. That kind of throttling seems like a bigger issue than the GPU, as that's harder to overcome without resorting to additional hardware, and it affects other emulators besides Dolphin.

It throttles once it hits 80c, from 1.5ghz to 1ghz. That is completely avoidable with the same sort of cooling solutions that the current raspberry pi 3b's have. 

That's what I said, you need an extra hardware solution. A $2-3 heat sink or a $5 fan. It's still an issue that hasn't been brought up. Everyone keeps talking about the GPU. The A72 runs hotter than the previous A53, so even with cooling, your ability to overclock (and do it effectively) is cut back. Given Dolphin's pretty CPU heavy, and just about every SoC running Dolphin eventually runs into thermal throttling issues, I don't see why it should be dismissed so easily.

From what I've seen, a lot of heat sinks don't ultimately prevent the Pi3 from reaching 80C, but they do slow down the time it takes to reach that temp. You need fans or fans + heat sink to get temps below 80C under full load.

I wonder if a heat sink could avoid the thermal throttling completely (in a device without OC) or I would have to get a noisy fan if I wanted to use stressful emulators (currently, any 3D emu)