Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

So, this will be a rambling post with probably a few errors because I don't have any background in graphics or programing - so TL;DR: why do Wii games have so much more ugly/jaggy edges than PS2 games on original hardware? Also - I guess this is not strictly related to Dolphin emulation, other than my joy at Dolphin existing and solving this problem for me!

I have a modest collection of both Wii and PS2 games. But ever since I bought the Wii, I have found it to be a graphical eyesore, to the point that I stopped playing those games at some point. Even games with super strong art direction, like Galaxy 1 and 2, or Metroid Prime, just grated on my nerves with all the jagged edges. My PS2 games don't impact my enjoyment me the same way, even if they ostensibly output video at the exact same resolution.

For the longest time I didn't think too hard about it, I just accepted it and thought maybe it was due to the "kinds" of art styles that clashed more or less with different resolutions. But this winter I've been on a PS2 binge, and slowly over time I realized that no, the PS2 games ARE (generally - of course it will vary from game to game) smoother and less jaggy. "But how? Why? Are they really? Let me check!"

So, I cranked the image area on my projector to max, turned off all postprocessing on the Framemeister, and went in close to count pixels. And it turned out that yes, of course the actual resolution is the same, but how they render edges is different. I don't know if the PS2 techincally has antialiasing per se, but the way the edges are rendered, there is SOME kind of smoothing happening. On the Wii, OTOH, not only are there non-smoothed stairstep-edges all over the place, there seems to be some kind of extra processing going on at the edges that makes it worse! Some kind of strip of extra, lightened pixels, like a halo lying outside the edge that serves to focus attention on the jagged edge and at the same time make it look more muddy! I went in close on the top platform on the Face Ship in Galaxy 2, and it was super weird! Mario's model (while sitting in his idle pose) was just a jumble of soft and undefined muddiness, while the border of the green grass had this lightened "halo" about it that just made the jaggies more apparent. I think this is what's grating on my visual cortex like a piece of sand paper and impacting my enjoyment.

The PS2 is of course not perfect, but at least there you either get a line that is smoothed pretty damn well, or, when you do get jaggies, they are at least clean and sharp.

So - I dunno, am I crazy? Am I imagining all of this? Or misinterpreting? I just checked out a Resident Evil 4 comparison video on Youtube, and the quality left something to be desired, but looking closely at the edges of GC/Wii vs PS2 it seemd to corroborate what I found. So - it seems at least to me that going forward I will not bother emulating PS2 games, while Wii/GC emulation will be essential for me to enjoy those games.

If I remember correctly, I think PS2 uses some Edge Anti-Aliasing implementation that blurs the render but smooths the edges.
While it's not very noticeable on a CRT TV, using GameCube and PS2 on LCD screens makes it obvious.

You mean the things I complain about on Wii/GC are not as noticeable on a CRT? Strange that the PS2 should be that much better about that!

Edit: Also strange that the Wii, coming one generation later, should be so behind the times on this. Nintendo is otherwise super strong on art direction, strange that they should be so lax on edge rendering.

(01-27-2017, 11:10 PM)joques Wrote: [ -> ]You mean the things I complain about on Wii/GC are not as noticeable on a CRT? Strange that the PS2 should be that much better about that!

Edit: Also strange that the Wii, coming one generation later, should be so behind the times on this. Nintendo is otherwise super strong on art direction, strange that they should be so lax on edge rendering.

The Wii was really just a GameCube in drag with an upclocked processor iirc. That's why Dolphin can emulate both GC and Wii games.
Pretty much the only difference in terms of what games could do on either was that the Wii used larger game disks.

(01-28-2017, 12:51 AM)Ivybridge11 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty much the only difference in terms of what games could do on either was that the Wii used larger game disks.

And the higher CPU clock, and the increased RAM, and the support for extra peripherals...

But yes, the rendering worked the same way.

(01-28-2017, 12:58 AM)JosJuice Wrote: [ -> ]And the higher CPU clock, and the increased RAM, and the support for extra peripherals...

But yes, the rendering worked the same way.

Well, I meant in terms of the graphics it could output mainly.

Ok, so this was a problem already on the original GC, and it was just carried forward into the Wii? That tracks with the RE4 comparison video I saw - GC and Wii were identically jaggy there. What then is the Wii's additional power going towards? Just pushing more polygons, with no technically feasible way of smoothing edges?

Either way I remember being told that the GC, despite its small size, was stronger than the PS2, so it's still a mystery to me how it could be that much worse at this. Not looking for solutions or anything, just curious.

There are games on GCN that use anti-aliasing, like Rogue Squadron 2/3.

Also, the fact that most PS2 uses EAA doesn't mean that people want that. Some people prefer to see a jaggy but clean image instead of a smooth but blurry image. It's up to everyone.

Didn't really get the answers I had hoped for I was certain someone in the know would jump in and say "Well, the reason the CG (and by extension the Wii) renders polygons in this particular way, is XWZ. This is bad in way A, but good in way B, and what it allows us to do in Dolphin, is C."  Oh well.