Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

MaJoR Wrote:The N64 is vital in the evolution of controllers

Honestly, I don't see how. I think we would have been fine if it hadn't come along. If it wouldn't have been Nintendo, it would just have been someone else, given time. If anything, people looked at the N64 controller and saw how not to design a decent controller for 3D games.

MaJoR Wrote:But Dual Analog came before the first person shooter use for it. Dual analog did not have that in mind when it was made. Someone at Sony saw the N64 controller and thought "Hey, if we made TWO analog sticks, and put them side by side, this would work great for camera control, and we could say we're TWICE as good as their controller!" Then a developer got a hold of it while making a first person shooter and realized it's potential there you go. The N64 controller was vital to developing that next step.

Source? That just sounds like conjecture. Again, any company, whether it was Sony, Sega, or Nintendo, who provided a 3D system with analog joystick input would have been the "vital first stepping stone for later designs" by virtue of being first. In light of that, it's nothing to start blowing trumpets over. If the ill-fated Saturn had switched to analog joystick input, it would have been where the N64 controller stands. It's just timing. The merits of the actual N64 controller, however, are far less than its historical relevance.

MaJoR Wrote:Yet no one hates on the famicom controllers, the N64 controller gets it all.

Because the N64 controller is bewildering by design, rather than suffering from mechanical issues purely. Unfortunately, the N64 controller suffered from both, whereas the controller design of the Famicom (and NES) was acceptable (for the most part, anyway, the blocky NES controller is still iffy in my mind).

MaJoR Wrote:"Low point in controller design". FAH! It was a revolution in controller design. From the sounds of it, you'd have preferred they just made a SNES controller and done nothing to improve the quality of gaming.

Yes, I would have loved the N64 to have had something comparable to the Wii's Classic controller. You can add joysticks without resorting to bizarre controller designs.

MaJoR Wrote:Sure it had problems, but almost every control revolution has had those same growing pains.

Growing pains shouldn't make it into production, ideally. That's what QA testing and getting early opinions is all about. Sure the internet didn't really "exist" back then, but focus groups did. Nowadays, you see people like Valve taking great risks to make something just as revolutionary, but they've gone back to the drawing board to make sure they get this right the first iteration. It wasn't as if Nintendo introduced altered, alternate, modified, or updated versions of the N64 controller; they kept it the same for the system's entire lifespan.

MaJoR Wrote:The real low point in controller designs are the images I posted. Now THOSE are bad controllers. True failures in gamepad design are obvious, really. They are deadends. No one is going to look at a fairchild F and think of how similar it is to an Xbox 360 controller. It's not, not even remotely, because the Fairchild-F is one of the worst if not the worst controller designs ever imagined, and no one has ever borrowed from it's design. The same could be said for the Phillips CDi Paddle or the Magnovox Odyssey controller (ew). The Jaguar is the least horrible in this bunch, but it's really bad; and they had no excuse for it as it came after the SNES controller and it wasn't even trying to tackle the 3D revolution.

Who cares about other systems? I'm talking Nintendo. There's a reason why the great gaming crash in the 80's happened and Nintendo rose above it all, but every time I see your signature, a part of me always sighs when I look at the N64 controller. Revolutionary? Sure, in the sense that someone had to be first, but first != good. If they had spent a little more time, we really would have had something amazing in our hands (no pun intended). There's trying, and then there's getting it right.

MaJoR Wrote:I've studied it, and read several interviews from the era. The Virtual Boy controller did need the "prongs" for a very serious reason - it had the batteries in the gamepad. It was set up that way so you could strap the virtual boy to your head if you wanted to without it getting peeled off from all that weight. In the end no one used it that way and it looks weird in hindsight, but that was why it has prongs.

They could have gone for a totally different approach and have a controller (bigger and wider of course) that was similar to the GBA. I get that it needed batteries, but they could have designed a controller that did not rely on prongs. I mean, just looking at the controller, I can't see how lopping the prongs off (and rounding the bottom portion out like an SNES controller) would have adversely affected gameplay. At the very least, the prongs were unnecessarily elongated.

(05-31-2014, 11:06 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]So, what, are like all of Nintendo's controllers more or less subpar to okay-ish then? Is that what you're saying? :p

Yes, exactly. Nintendo has yet to make a good controller. The wii classic pro started to go in the right direction, but then when it came time to improve that design, and make something better, for the wii u, they screwed it up.

Quote:Oh come on. People give way too much hate on the N64 controller. The only mistake Nintendo made was the 3 prong design

That is a ridiculously huge mistake though. It makes it uncomfortable, and half of the controller is essentially unusable.

Quote:And yea, FPS games benefit from Dual Analog. But Dual Analog came before the first person shooter use for it.

How do you figure that? Fps games existed before dual analog controllers. They became more common after them because less shitty controllers made it actually possible to comfortably play them. N64 games didn't make use of the dpad or l button because they were impossible to use. It wasn't because no one had the idea to actually use them with a controller that had a joystick until the dualshock came out.

Shonumi Wrote:Honestly, I don't see how. I think we would have been fine if it hadn't come along. If it wouldn't have been Nintendo, it would just have been someone else, given time. If anything, people looked at the N64 controller and saw how not to design a decent controller for 3D games.

Uh no. Sure it looks obvious to us looking back, but at the time NO ONE knew how to make this work. Hence all the crazy weird things trying to sort out how to do it. If it hadn't been for the N64, at the very least, we wouldn't have had proper 3D controls till the 6th gen (gamecube), and that would have dramatically altered the 5th gen itself, placing more emphasis on 2D or 2.5D gameplay, since they could do that. Remember, these decisions were being made in 1995 and had to last till 2001. Six years. If someone didn't figure out 3D controllers we'd have had 6 years of this crap before they had a chance to try again. The N64 controller was a big freakin deal, and gaming would have been changed a ton if it didn't happen.

Shonumi Wrote:If the ill-fated Saturn had switched to analog joystick input, it would have been where the N64 controller stands.

You mean like this?



Study more dude. Game console evolution is fascinating. You'd be amazed how much THAT controller influences modern designs. Thanks to the cooperation between MS and Dreamcast, the sega design lives on, which in turned influence Nintendo designs. It literally went like this.

Saturn 3D > Dreamcast > Xbox duke > Xbox Slim > 360 > Wii U Pro Controller

What was once a giant attempt to rip off the N64 controller has now spun full circle into the pro controller for nintendo. Fascinating how that works eh?

Shonumi Wrote:Yes, I would have loved the N64 to have had something comparable to the Wii's Classic controller. You can add joysticks without resorting to bizarre controller designs.

RachelB Wrote:

MaJoR Wrote:Oh come on. People give way too much hate on the N64 controller. The only mistake Nintendo made was the 3 prong design

That is a ridiculously huge mistake though. It makes it uncomfortable, and half of the controller is essentially unusable.

Why do you people hate the 3 grip design? Sure it looks odd, but who cares? All you have to do is not look at it, and you can forget it isn't 2 grip. That's it. Anyone who complains about it being nonfunctional doesn't know what they are talking about. It was perfectly fine. Who cares if "half" the controller is not usable. It doesn't matter what buttons are used, what matters is does it work or doesn't it. Z trigger and joystick works exactly the same as L trigger and dpad, and there's no ergonomic disadvantage. There is nothing functionally wrong with the 3 grip design.

That said, the 3 grip idea was a mistake. It originated because Nintendo was skittish about Miyamoto's crazy new joystick and his 3D game plans, so they wanted a fallback in case it didn't work and everyone went back to making SNES style games. Yes, this was a legit worry back then, as weird as that sounds today. The 3 grip design was that paranoia personified into the controller. If it didn't work out, which they were pretty sure was likely, then you could just play it like an SNES pad and forget the joystick was even there.

Of course that created a bunch of kids who held it like an SNES pad and got frustrated in walmart because they couldn't figure out how to make Mario move. Plus people see the size of the controller and scream "HUGE FAT OMG" instead of trying it on and realizing that the functional area is small, and it's only that big because of the gap required to fit your hands times 3 grips. The decision was absolutely and totally dumb. What they should have done was trust in the joystick but keep the dpad around, in a design that was, well, like a gamecube controller! Or a classic controller pro! But that's us in our 8th gen world talking about 5th gen design considerations. They didn't know what we know. And so the mistake happened. Instead of saying the obvious things of what we would do with all our superior 8th gen knowledge, what we should be doing is analyzing what they did and why they did it.

Shonumi Wrote:Growing pains shouldn't make it into production, ideally. That's what QA testing and getting early opinions is all about.

The joystick problem was not something that QA could discover. It requires years of friction. I suppose a machine could have worn it down over many months, but sometimes you just have to get it out into the wild before problems appear. That said, Nintendo did create a superior plastic version for the atomic controller set, which improve this issue greatly. But meh, damage done by that point. Plus Nintendo themselves weren't entirely enthusiastic about the joystick thing. The dpad was there invention, patented, that defined them as a video game company. To say they were hesitant to abandon it as their primary control method is an understatement.

As for the three grip element, the focus testing would have revealed the confusion. But they were so worried about the joystick failing.... I'm not sure they would care, and would view the potential advantages as better than the confusion. Hell, if it flopped, then they'd want people to ignore the center grip, which is what they ended up doing! There are lots and lots of design reasons for the mistakes and successes of the N64 controller. That's why I love it so much. It's a flawed yet revolutionary work of design. Lots of juicy stuff.

Shonumi Wrote:They could have gone for a totally different approach and have a controller (bigger and wider of course) that was similar to the GBA. I get that it needed batteries, but they could have designed a controller that did not rely on prongs. I mean, just looking at the controller, I can't see how lopping the prongs off (and rounding the bottom portion out like an SNES controller) would have adversely affected gameplay. At the very least, the prongs were unnecessarily elongated.

Uh.... did you see the size of that battery pack?



It holds six AA batteries. There is absolutely no way that gamepad was going to exist without grips. The controller is UGLY, sure, but it's job is not to be pretty: it's supposed to be a controller. As a controller, it had good ergonomics and was the first symmetrical controller design ever made (that didn't have a large centered joystick or wheel anyway). Eh, I guess there's the Atari Lynx, but the less said about that, the better. Anyway, the Virtual Boy controller is quirky and fascinating! And it's functional. Who cares what it looks like?

As for the grips... look carefully. The controller is deceptively small. Those dpads are TINY. Like GBA tiny.



The grips fill his hands just fine, without ever leaving his palms or reaching his wrists. Still ugly though.

It's a shame that Sega Saturn D-Pad didn't influence the Xbox Controllers

its funny seeing all this talk because I actually have these controller right next to me as I read this. Its a must for my usb project.

RachelB Wrote:Yes, exactly. Nintendo has yet to make a good controller. The wii classic pro started to go in the right direction, but then when it came time to improve that design, and make something better, for the wii u, they screwed it up.

Well that's your opinion. Like I said the Wii's Classic controller (and the Pro version) needs to have the joysticks lower to make it more comfortable like the PSX style controllers. The GC got halfway there, but went for something XBOX-ish, but the grip is much better for my hands than the Classic or Classic Pro, so it wins in my book.

MaJoR Wrote:Uh no. Sure it looks obvious to us looking back, but at the time NO ONE knew how to make this work. Hence all the crazy weird things trying to sort out how to do it. If it hadn't been for the N64, at the very least, we wouldn't have had proper 3D controls till the 6th gen (gamecube), and that would have dramatically altered the 5th gen itself, placing more emphasis on 2D or 2.5D gameplay, since they could do that. Remember, these decisions were being made in 1995 and had to last till 2001. Six years. If someone didn't figure out 3D controllers we'd have had 6 years of this crap before they had a chance to try again. The N64 controller was a big freakin deal, and gaming would have been changed a ton if it didn't happen.

So by dint of being first, using a crazy design should be acceptable? You're still missing the fact that someone else would have been first. How do we know the DualShock wouldn't have come along anyway? You're playing what-if's and what-if-not's with history just as much as I am. Again, if it weren't Nintendo, someone else would have come along. What's your point that it would have taken longer? It still would have come.

MaJoR Wrote:You mean like this?

Yes like that, except that wasn't their default controller that shipped with every system, quite unlike what Nintendo did, and probably the only chief difference. It was an afterthought (for NiGHTS) rather than a forethought for how the system would be used. If that had shipped (and if the Saturn were, you know, a successful SEGA console) we'd be singing its praises in-place of the N64 and it's controller. SEGA got the timing and emphasis wrong, but they definitely had a chance to make the analog joystick a revolution in 3D gaming.

MaJoR Wrote:Study more dude. Game console evolution is fascinating. You'd be amazed how much THAT controller influences modern designs. Thanks to the cooperation between MS and Dreamcast, the sega design lives on, which in turned influence Nintendo designs.

What do I need to study for? I was there. I played every Nintendo console and handheld since the NES and GameBoy (excluding the semi-recent Wii U). I played the XBOX and Dreamcast with my friends. I own a PS1, PS2, and PS3. Even though I only owned a Genesis, my cousins bought every SEGA console thereafter and let me play it. I saw first hand who did what and when. Yes, I know how influential the N64's controller has been, but you're still singing and dancing about it as if it came from some Holy Land of gaming. Again, somebody had to do it first, that's why we're here today. But that doesn't mean that whoever was first essentially made good or well designed controller. It just means that something (not everything) they did was worth copying; every controller since has stayed away from the quirky design the N64 had for a very good reason.

Being first makes you a trendsetter, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you gave to the public was great or good. The N64 was not a good controller, at least not nearly as good as it could have been. Like I said, you can be the first at something new in controller designs, take your time, and get it right. Nintendo proved it themselves with the Wiimote, and hopefully Valve can do something similar.

MaJoR Wrote:Why do you people hate the 3 grip design? Sure it looks odd, but who cares? All you have to do is not look at it, and you can forget it isn't 2 grip. That's it. Anyone who complains about it being nonfunctional doesn't know what they are talking about. It was perfectly fine. Who cares if "half" the controller is not usable. It doesn't matter what buttons are used, what matters is does it work or doesn't it. Z trigger and joystick works exactly the same as L trigger and dpad, and there's no ergonomic disadvantage. There is nothing functionally wrong with the 3 grip design.

We hate it because it sucks. It not just odd to look at, it's odd to use. If you can't use "half" of the controller 90% of the time you play, either the game developers are missing out on something, or Nintendo made bad design choices. Usually, if the developers don't utilize something in console hardware, it's due to the fact that it isn't worth their time, so I'm laying the fault on Nintendo. Again, the C-Buttons inhibit a lot of camera systems for 3D platforms or 3rd perspective games. The developers just had to deal with it since the buttons weren't going to be as accurate as a secondary joystick. Depending on your hand-size, your hands would be abnormally (and uncomfortably) close together. This isn't a made-up issue; I have friends that won't play N64 games unless it's through an emulator and controller of their choice (or they use a decent 3rd party controller on the original system). That's a very large ergonomic disadvantage.

MaJoR Wrote:What they should have done was trust in the joystick but keep the dpad around, in a design that was, well, like a gamecube controller! Or a classic controller pro! But that's us in our 8th gen world talking about 5th gen design considerations. They didn't know what we know. And so the mistake happened. Instead of saying the obvious things of what we would do with all our superior 8th gen knowledge, what we should be doing is analyzing what they did and why they did it.

Being first isn't an excuse for poor designs. End of story. Sure you can experiment, but the N64 controller (though it had its reasons) was a generally poorly designed controller. It only took Sony 1 try to get (imo) the best controller design I would use for any game, in the same generation as Nintendo. It didn't take the insight of 2014; they did it in 1997. Yes, they were more than likely influenced by Ninetndo, but Sony took just as many risks as Nintendo (I mean come on, a second joystick on all your controllers now sounds par for the course to us, but back in the day it was unheard of, as was using joysticks as buttons which in prolific today) but it really worked. Sony got something that has been working for almost 4 hardware generations now; Nintendo is still all over the place (GC controllers, Wiimotes, Wii U pads, Pro and Classic Pros...) One can argue they still don't know what they're doing.

MaJoR Wrote:The joystick problem was not something that QA could discover. It requires years of friction. I suppose a machine could have worn it down over many months, but sometimes you just have to get it out into the wild before problems appear. That said, Nintendo did create a superior plastic version for the atomic controller set, which improve this issue greatly. But meh, damage done by that point. Plus Nintendo themselves weren't entirely enthusiastic about the joystick thing. The dpad was there invention, patented, that defined them as a video game company. To say they were hesitant to abandon it as their primary control method is an understatement.

I'm not referring to the white residue that comes from joystick use, I'm talking about generally using the controller in games. Again, not being able to use half of the controller looks like poor designs to me. They could have easily spent the time making a better fallback solution that incorporated both the dpad and the joystick than the 3-prong design. The N64 controller has been controversial for years for a reason; people didn't like it. If they had spent the time testing why people wouldn't like it (focus groups...) they could have made something that was just as revolutionary and likeable.

MaJoR Wrote:It holds six AA batteries. There is absolutely no way that gamepad was going to exist without grips.

The Game Gear says hi.

They could have, and it's even more plausible when you consider that the VB controller doesn't need the additonal space and weight of a dedicated screen.

MaJoR Wrote:Who cares what it looks like?

What it looks like affects how people play it (unless shapes play no role in how people hold things :| ). At any rate, I never said it was detrimental to gameplay, just unnecessary, which it is.

MaJoR Wrote:The grips fill his hands just fine, without ever leaving his palms or reaching his wrists. Still ugly though.

It still suffers from a similar problem as the N64 ergonomically (hands too large? They'll be bumping and cramping into the batteries...) A rounded out bottom would have 1) encased the batteries and 2) pushed the hands further from the batteries.

I find it interesting how people actually like having the joystick two inches below the natural position. Over 90% of games use the left joystick over the D-pad, why insist on putting it in an inherently less comfortable and likely thumb-dislocating position? Symmetry over usability? Then again I've never liked PS[1-3] controllers at all (puny handles, loose analog sticks, and triggers very difficult to push 100%), nor have I used any of the recent Nintendo opposite-joystick pads.

(05-31-2014, 09:49 PM)MaJoR Wrote: [ -> ]

RachelB Wrote:

MaJoR Wrote:Oh come on. People give way too much hate on the N64 controller. The only mistake Nintendo made was the 3 prong design

That is a ridiculously huge mistake though. It makes it uncomfortable, and half of the controller is essentially unusable.

Why do you people hate the 3 grip design? Sure it looks odd, but who cares? All you have to do is not look at it, and you can forget it isn't 2 grip. That's it. Anyone who complains about it being nonfunctional doesn't know what they are talking about. It was perfectly fine. Who cares if "half" the controller is not usable. It doesn't matter what buttons are used, what matters is does it work or doesn't it. Z trigger and joystick works exactly the same as L trigger and dpad, and there's no ergonomic disadvantage. There is nothing functionally wrong with the 3 grip design.

Not having a dpad or l button is what is functionally wrong with it.

Quote:Z trigger and joystick works exactly the same as L trigger and dpad

Yes to Z, no to joystick. There's a good reason controllers have both a dpad and joystick.

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(06-01-2014, 09:42 AM)jimbo1qaz Wrote: [ -> ]I find it interesting how people actually like having the joystick two inches below the natural position. Over 90% of games use the left joystick over the D-pad, why insist on putting it in an inherently less comfortable and likely thumb-dislocating position? Symmetry over usability? Then again I've never liked PS[1-3] controllers at all (puny handles, loose analog sticks, and triggers very difficult to push 100%), nor have I used any of the recent Nintendo opposite-joystick pads.

It's not? If i hold my hand out straight, put my thumbs on the joysticks of my ps3 controller, and then wrap my hand around, my fingers land perfectly on l/r 1-2. It's also 100x easier to use both joystick and dpad at once that way.

(06-01-2014, 09:42 AM)jimbo1qaz Wrote: [ -> ]I find it interesting how people actually like having the joystick two inches below the natural position. Over 90% of games use the left joystick over the D-pad, why insist on putting it in an inherently less comfortable and likely thumb-dislocating position? Symmetry over usability? Then again I've never liked PS[1-3] controllers at all (puny handles, loose analog sticks, and triggers very difficult to push 100%), nor have I used any of the recent Nintendo opposite-joystick pads.

Same here actually.

On the other hand, despite what other people say, I really like the WiiU Pro controller. GC/Xbox style controllers have the right stick in an annoying to reach position, PS1-3 controllers and similar have BOTH joysticks at the bottom, while the WUPC actually has the joysticks AND the buttons easy to reach on BOTH sides.
But I haven't played too many console FPS games (or used a controller with PC games), so I can understand people being really used to the classic "one joystick above, one below" design and being annoyed at having their muscle memory fail them when using the WUPC.

Top analog: Good for doing 2d things in 3d and also doing 3d things and menus and also everything else.

Bottom analog: Controller designer isn't tempted to make such horrifying dpads as you find on the XBox and GC controllers.

Which is better, though?