Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

(10-04-2013, 12:44 AM)xemnas Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for you reply. Just wanted to know how you think. I disagree that saying nothing means they aren't interested but we can have different opinions. It would be quite chaotic if someone talked about something then 1,000 users just posted to say "I agree".

Shonumi Wrote:Again, the majority of users here on the forums do not care about advanced AA enough to ask for it in Dolphin.

This is a logical deduction. If more people cared enough about advanced AA to ask for it or even bring it up in discussions, they would have asked for it or have brought it up in discussions. Most people haven't, thus we can say they don't care enough to ask for advanced AA or even talk about it. Just replying because I didn't think you saw my latest post explaining things better

Quote: It's not a given that flexibility is part of the equation either.

What "equation" is that you are always referring to here?

Flexibility in AA options is an advantage, as you can customize it to look best for a specific game and/or you can fine tune your performance/IQ ratio.
So you can ceep steady 60fps and still have descent AA, for example.

Quote:On the other hand, Dolphin is a community-based project. You're one person; whatever changes you propose has to reach some sort of consensus among users and especially the developers.

Honestly, i did not see anyone pointing out a disadvantage or speaking out against custom resolutions. Even devs.
Only problem seemed the amount of work, so i think they would be glad if someone did it.

Quote: Paul and I say that advanced AA beyond 9xSSAA will more or less become a moot point.

No, you are inaccurate here!

He said we would not give a shit about "any variety of AA more specific than "9x SSAA".
That not only includes more advanced AA, but also the existing alternatives such as SGSSAA, FXAA and the like.
Remember the context his comment was made: We did a comparison of SGSSAA vs OGSSAA.
Now what is the main advantage of a sparse grid vs an ordered grid, before all else?
You can achieve a similar IQ with less performance hit.
So even if you're satisfied with IQ, another form of AA can still be interesting, even if you're not an "AA-enthusiast". ( O.o)

Gabbyjay Wrote:What "equation" is that you are always referring to here?

The same one that we've been discussing: the overall value of advanced AA methods such as RG/SGSAA and whether it would be useful in Dolphin.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Flexibility in AA options is an advantage, as you can customize it to look best for a specific game and/or you can fine tune your performance/IQ ratio.

Again, it's an advantage few have said they want in Dolphin, and an advantage that some of the devs do not see.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Honestly, i did not see anyone pointing out a disadvantage or speaking out against custom resolutions. Even devs.

That's because the devs thought custom IR would be a good idea, it was something they wanted to implement (and did in a seperate branch), and felt it would benefit a large portion of users. This is not the case with advanced AA like RG/SGSSAA.

Gabbyjay Wrote:He said we would not give a shit about "any variety of AA more specific than "9x SSAA".
That not only includes more advanced AA, but also the existing alternatives such as SGSSAA, FXAA and the like.
Remember the context his comment was made: We did a comparison of SGSSAA vs OGSSAA.
Now what is the main advantage of a sparse grid vs an ordered grid, before all else?
You can achieve a similar IQ with less performance hit.
So even if you're satisfied with IQ, another form of AA can still be interesting, even if you're not an "AA-enthusiast". ( O.o)

And again, performance is not always a consideration for everyone, especially given the advances in GPU hardware (desktop and mobile) that are occuring. Other forms of AA may be "interesting" or useful, but not necessarily essential.

Quote: The same one that we've been discussing: the overall value of advanced AA methods such as RG/SGSAA and whether it would be useful in Dolphin.

And why exactly does performance not play a role in this?
I think it does!
(If you want high EER, for example: OGSSAA subpixel mask is quite ineffective when it comes to EER.
To equal the EER of 4xSGSSAA you would need 16xOGSSAA!)

Quote:Again, it's an advantage few have said they want in Dolphin, and an advantage that some of the devs do not see.

That few users have pointed out they want it, does not make it any less an advantage.
If anything, it would mean that only a certain userbases makes use of this advantage.
But there are always many users who use a feature once it's included, even if thed did not post in the forums that they want it. Please consider this.
Also, plaese consider the following:
Not knowing about a technique is not the same as not wanting it.

Quote: That's because the devs thought custom IR would be a good idea, it was something they wanted to implement (and did in a seperate branch), and felt it would benefit a large portion of users. This is not the case with advanced AA like RG/SGSSAA.

They already provide several AA-options: CSAA, SSAA, MSAA and thus SGSSAA. And of course you can inject SMAA or FXAA.
The reason MSAA and thus SGSSAA is not included in the DX9-Plugin is that it's not compatible with the rendering technique used, as natural already explained. He also pointed out why SSAA is not used in DX11, yet there are still ways to achieve this already (via downsampling by custom driver resolutions).

Some of these Methods need to be enabled in the driver or injected seperately, of course. I dont have the slightest problem with this, in fact i even prefer this (as i can customize it even further). Of course the ability to enable it this way makes the need to include it directly into Dolphin way smaller.

Another is:
If any AA other then 9xSSAA would be considered useless and MSAA support would be dropped (hypothetically), this also takes away many other options.
But i dont think this will be the case. similar to as nVida and AMD will not drop all their AA-Options in favor of OGSSAA, even if high DPI displays are common.

Quote:And again, performance is not always a consideration for everyone, especially given the advances in GPU hardware (desktop and mobile) that are occuring.

What about all the users that dont have access to the best hardware? (What was it that you said about majorities and stuff?)

First you tell me advanced AA is not necessary cause only few people use it, and now you tell me performance is not an issue since there are a few people with descent hardware that do not care about it?


Cmon, admit it! Flexibility in IQ and performance is a great advantage if you want to get the best IQ/fps ratio.

Quote:Other forms of AA may be "interesting" or useful, but not necessarily essential.

"Not necessarily essential" is a different story than "no one gives a shit about it".

I no longer know what you guys are arguing about.

I doubt a large percentage of Dolphin users actually know of any AA methods more advanced or specific than SSAA (e.g. I didn't until this thread appeared), and of the few who do, it's doubtful that more than half care about having these AA methods in Dolphin. I'd actually wager that much more people care about having FXAA and other shader-based AA methods since they often don't have GPUs capable of doing even 4x MSAA.

For the small portion of users who do care about these AA methods... y'know Dolphin is an emulator, right? Improved graphics quality is naught more than an enhancement, it isn't and shouldn't be the main focus – accurate emulation is far more important. If you care enough, learn enough about them to implement them yourself instead of relying on unwilling devs to do it for you.

(10-04-2013, 12:39 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]At any rate, Paul is next in line to the Dolphin throne, and he's much worse than delroth by a country mile (not really :p).

I wish I could be useful enough to the community to take the throne, but I am nothing more than a lowly preacher. v_v

Quote: Improved graphics quality is naught more than an enhancement, it isn't and shouldn't be the main focus – accurate emulation is far more important.

Who says what should be the main focus and what should not be?
Some users want an experiance as close to the original as possible, while some users are only interested in Dolphin since the original WII does not even support HD resolutions.

Personally, i dont care about emulation as accurate as possible - if i want this, i simply play on the original hardware!

I am interested in the comparison and i like it when a game i used to like appears in a new glory. This is what makes emulation interesting for me.

As you can see, there are many different opionions about this. There is no "this is what emulations should be about".

Gabbyjay Wrote:And why exactly does performance not play a role in this?

It was considered, that's what "overall" means. You consider all aspects. I've already said that performance isn't a concern for all, but not that it isn't a concern period.

Gabbyjay Wrote:That few users have pointed out they want it, does not make it any less an advantage.

And I never said it wasn't an advantage, just that those who want it have been very limited in expressing their support, and the devs do not see the advantages.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Not knowing about a technique is not the same as not wanting it.

Conversely, knowing about it doesn't mean it will be wanted. I've never heard RG/SGSSAA until now, and I still don't want it.

Gabbyjay Wrote:They already provide several AA-options: CSAA, SSAA, MSAA and thus SGSSAA. And of course you can inject SMAA or FXAA.
The reason MSAA and thus SGSSAA is not included in the DX9-Plugin is that it's not compatible with the rendering technique used, as natural already explained. He also pointed out why SSAA is not used in DX11, yet there are still ways to achieve this already (via downsampling by custom driver resolutions).

Some of these Methods need to be enabled in the driver or injected seperately, of course. I dont have the slightest problem with this, in fact i even prefer this (as i can customize it even further). Of course the ability to enable it this way makes the need to include it directly into Dolphin way smaller.

I had a hard time determining what your point was in this segment (at least in regards to your quoting me). What does this have to do with Custom IR being a worthwhile addition to Dolphin but not advanced AA? The devs don't think it's a good idea (two have said as much already), none of them are willing to implement it, and they don't see the benefit to Dolphin's userbase. I don't see how this (the part I quoted above) was a direct response to what I wrote.

Gabbyjay Wrote:If any AA other then 9xSSAA would be considered useless and MSAA support would be dropped (hypothetically), this also takes away many other options.

When options get eliminated from Dolphin (so long Lock Threads to Cores, goodbye Disable Lighting) it's almost always because the devs feel those options aren't being used by many users. If people need those options, they can always stick with the last revision that worked for them (which is currently the case for a lot of people who choose not to upgrade Dolphin). If MSAA gets dropped in Dolphin, it will only happen if MSAA somehow becomes an obscure, outdated, and underused form of AA, which may not be the case for quite some time. The short end of it is that options are eliminated as they become obselete, not while they're still being used by many people. DX9 deprecation (and its eventual removal) may be a sticking point for some, but it hasn't been removed just yet, and there's still time for people to transition to DX11.

Gabbyjay Wrote:What about all the users that dont have access to the best hardware? (What was it that you said about majorities and stuff?)

The people who don't have access to the best hardware aren't always the same people clamoring for the best IQ or the best performance. The point was that even as time goes by, you'll be able to buy cheap, mid-level hardware that may perform better than the previous high-end hardware from 2 or 3 generations ago. GPU tech is advancing to the point where you don't need high-end hardware to achieve enjoyable results in a given game or application (though not with everything maxed out ). The price/performance ratio of mid-range, ordinary hardware you could find at Best Buy is getting strong enough to do the job for many things, included Dolphin with a bit of SSAA thrown into the mix. What's becoming "decent hardware" is slowly moving into cheap and affordable ranges.

Gabbyjay Wrote:First you tell me advanced AA is not necessary cause only few people use it, and now you tell me performance is not an issue since there are a few people with descent hardware that do not care about it?

I said it's not necessary when considering high DPIs and high resolutions. I said not many people have expressed a desire to see it in Dolphin. I told you that performance is not an issue for some because our baseline and lower/mid-level hardware is constantly improving year to year.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Cmon, admit it! Flexibility in IQ and performance is a great advantage if you want to get the best IQ/fps ratio.

They're only great advantages if one cares about them. If one doesn't, than it's hard for him or her to consider their values.

Gabbyjay Wrote:"Not necessarily essential" is a different story than "no one gives a shit about it".

People usually "do not give a shit" about things that are "not necessarily essential" though.

(10-04-2013, 02:46 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]I said it's not necessary when considering high DPIs and high resolutions.

What do you mean by high DPIs? For 27" monitors, the highest resolution I know of is 2560 x 1440. And the PPI is only 108.79. Currently, not many people use these monitors. Maybe you mean 4K 27" monitors (PPI is 163.18).

Quote: It was considered, that's what "overall" means. You consider all aspects. I've already said that performance isn't a concern for all, but not that it isn't a concern period.

You said it was not "part of the equation".
Make up your mind.

Anyway, i think you agree with me that the flexibility to have AA that works sufficient for your needs, but at lower performance cost than another AA technique, is something a lot of people DO care about. Otherwise, they could drop 4xSSAA and all the other AA techniques as soon as high DPI displays are common. But then again, higher pixel count also means the need for more performance, so... you get the point.

Quote:And I never said it wasn't an advantage, just that those who want it have been very limited in expressing their support

And the reason for this could be that we already have it, as far as it is possible with today's hardware, couldn't it?

Quote:Conversely, knowing about it doesn't mean it will be wanted.

Think about it this way:
There are many users who dont know about a certain feature as long as it's not included in the Emu.
But imagine it would be there: Many users notice it, and many of them will use it.

Think about all those users playing their PC-Games in "ultra"-Settings.
Do you think every one of those understands settings like DOF, SSAO, Mesh distance levels, TXAA and the like?
No way!
I bet most users of these settings don't even understand the meaning.
Do you really think those users would ask for a feature like SSAO in a forum if it was not there?
Yet, they just turn on every option (long as their system can handle it), since they want to play a game in the best quality possible!
So why do you think the same is not true for Dolphin?
There are MANY people that want the best quality available - check the youtube Dolphin videos - which is perfectly understandable. But they lack the technical background to understand what is possible and what is not - which is also understandable - so they cannot ask for a feature they do not know if its even possible.

Another example from another region in emulation which gives descent advantages over the original systems: Controls.
Can you imagine how many users see the controls configuration screen for their gamepads and are surprised by the possibilities?
You can remap your buttons, you can use two different devices at the same time, you can use a Sega Controller in a Nintendo Game, you can make a button have two functions or make two buttons perform a certain function when pressed simultaneously, and so on.
Now, i am using emulators and contributing to the scene for a long time. But when i saw that, i realised: Hey, I can make Mario Jump by the A-Button of my 360 controller, and, optinally, the R-Trigger. Which acutally makes the right stick a lot more useful, since your thumb can rest on it.
If i had not seen this in the config screen, i would not even have thought about it.
But now i know of the possibility, and if it weren't included yet, i would definitely ask for it.

Quote: I've never heard RG/SGSSAA until now

Sry, but that explains a lot.

So as you lack even the basics, how can you determine, for example, if 9xAA would be sufficient in fighting moirees at high DPI resolutions?
Pixels are smaller, but how do you know how effective the human eye is in detecting such regularities?
Think about moirees on fences, brick walls and the like.
A SG is way more effective at fighting moirees then an OG.

Quote: I had a hard time determining what your point was in this segment (at least in regards to your quoting me). What does this have to do with Custom IR being a worthwhile addition to Dolphin but not advanced AA?

Your quote was: "That's because the devs thought custom IR would be a good idea, it was something they wanted to implement (and did in a seperate branch), and felt it would benefit a large portion of users. This is not the case with advanced AA like RG/SGSSAA."
My answer to that was, of course they are not that concerned with it, as we already can use this (as far as possible).

Quote:When options get eliminated from Dolphin (so long Lock Threads to Cores, goodbye Disable Lighting) it's almost always because the devs feel those options aren't being used by many users.

I don't think so Bobby... i do not remember any emu dev wanting to have his emu have less functionality than an earlier version. If a feature is removed, there has to be a reason other than that, like bugs, compatibility, a lot of work involved in keeping it work over the revisions, and stuff. Plus, they could not even determine how many users use a feature that is already incloded and how many don't.

Quote:If people need those options, they can always stick with the last revision that worked for them (which is currently the case for a lot of people who choose not to upgrade Dolphin).

That is NOT really an option!
You will end up using a totally outdated version one day, and you will have tradeoffs to make, as newer versions might provide functions that you actually wanna use.

Quote:If MSAA gets dropped in Dolphin, it will only happen if MSAA somehow becomes an obscure, outdated, and underused form of AA, which may not be the case for quite some time.

Could this include the time when high DPI displays are common place?

Quote:The price/performance ratio of mid-range, ordinary hardware you could find at Best Buy is getting strong enough to do the job for many things, included Dolphin with a bit of SSAA thrown into the mix. What's becoming "decent hardware" is slowly moving into cheap and affordable ranges.

That way you could also say performance is not an issue at all, cause in 30 years there will be PCs capable of doing it.
I wanna see the system capable of handling high internal res/high DPI resolutions + 9xSSAA at playable framerates. 4K resolution also is a lot more demanding than today's 1080p standard. Thus not only the hardware evolves, but also the standard rises.
Plus, future revisions of an emu might as well be slower if they include another features and/or aim for more accuracy.


There are also advantages of "saving" performance even if the hardware was capable of doing more.
If your hardware does not have to work that hard, it will run cooler, more power saving and/or more quiet.

Quote:They're only great advantages if one cares about them. If one doesn't, than it's hard for him or her to consider their values.

Same could be said for almost any feature in emulation: Faster loading times, savestates, customizable controls, improved graphics or sound and the likes are only great if you care about them. If you don't, it's hard to consider their values. The whole emulation is not considered an advantage by 99% of the console game players out there, as they either dont know about them, dont care or just wanna play on the original hardware as it is easier to access.
Do you think Dolphin was created because they had a certain number of users in mind? Would it not be here, if the userbase was only half as large?
What is the goal here? I would think it is just to make an emulator as good as possible.
And i consider the flexibility to adjust your IQ/performance ratio an advantage that makes a good emulator even better.

Also, there are already many options included that only a few users actually might use, and they still deserve to be in there.

(10-04-2013, 02:46 AM)Shonumi Wrote: [ -> ]people usually "do not give a shit" about things that are "not necessarily essential" though.

So this is why people buy ferraris, live in expensive hotels, or play video games...

---

(10-04-2013, 03:32 AM)xemnas Wrote: [ -> ]What do you mean by high DPIs? For 27" monitors, the highest resolution I know of is 2560 x 1440. And the PPI is only 108.79. Currently, not many people use these monitors. Maybe you mean 4K 27" monitors (PPI is 163.18).

Yes, that's what makes this discussion kinda hypothetical.

Today, things look different and the advantages of different AA-methods are even more apparant.

Definitely not going back and reading it now. This is like having 3 of me in the same thread arguing.