Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

(05-08-2012, 12:07 PM)ExtremeDude2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-08-2012, 11:58 AM)Starscream Wrote: [ -> ]When I run Crysis on all high with my high-end laptop

lol wut

ExtremeDude2: "lol wut" is not a proper response in a discussion thread, especially when you take my comments meaning wrong. I'm not talking about my "current" laptop. I thought that would be obvious by now. Take some time, think about what you're going to say and type it, not "lol wut".

Quote:Then why did you keep insulting us and claiming we were ignorant to the superiority of laptops?

Lets make clear my previous statement which stated that I understand you have personal preferences which leaves desktops as the ideal choice for you. People use whatever their comfortable and accustomed to using, even if its strictly inferior to new innovations. For example people who still use the mailing system, dial-up, pay-phones, land-lines, Tube Tv's, and the list goes on. I in no way retract my statements regarding the Deluded, Misguided, and Criminally Ignorant Desktops Supremacists. While I still hold highly of you, in this instance I feel that you may unfortunately still be under the influence of that pernicious and noxious ideology.

Quote:You spoke as if there was no good reason to buy a desktop since laptops are superior by design

Monetarily desktops give more performance for their value, as I've constantly acknowledged and noted. If money is a roadblock then Desktops may be the best solution in terms of decent performance. However if money isn't a concern I believe that laptops are strictly superior, and with the hardware now being up to par with the highest end desktops (Foolishly deny it all you want, it makes no difference and doesn't change the reality) there is no reason to buy a Desktop. Any 27" monitors, ergonomic keyboards, wireless gaming mouse etc can all be connected to the laptop, just like a desktop could, in order to fully replicate the century old "Desktop Experience". Denying this fact isn't an option.

Quote:While it is POSSIBLE to use most desktop hardware in laptops it is not usually PRACTICAL to do so. A 3960x has a TDP of 135w and that's without an IGP. Putting that thing into a laptop is going to require a ludicrously expensive custom design that will either be big/heavy or loud depending on how they design the cooling system. Another example would be liquid cooling in a laptop, while technically possible it is not very practical due to design constraints.

Yet another absurd statement, this time rife with propaganda and ignorance. Who are you to deem Clevo's highest end laptop "Impractical", while never having seen the model in question. Clevo laptops in general are known for their extremely high tier cooling, and they never have had problems in the past cooling Desktop extreme processors. Sure the laptops will be big, that should be inherently obvious, however any sensible person spending over $2500+ on a true desktop replacement should already know that before deciding to get one. These are not Macbook Air's/Ultrabooks. Also I've already linked the video of A/W liquid cooling by Asetek, which is rumored to be available this year. It's by no means a necessity, as recent Gaming Laptops have phenomenal cooling, however it can help the Unparalleled Mobile Extreme chips extend their Oc'ing lead over (Non-Nitrogen Oc'ed) Desktop chips. Also Mxm 3.0b may allow laptops to exceed 100w Gpu's, with the rumors of 130-150w as the projected max for Mobile Gpu's, allowing them to effortlessly compete with the highest tier desktop Gpu's.

Quote:I think his point was not to call you stupid for using a desktop, his point was to call you (or anyone) stupid for saying that a gaming laptop is not good enough to play high-end games just as a desktop can.

That is a blunt but accurate summary of my stance and points in that regard. I don't mind if people use desktops, however spewing propaganda and fables regarding their supposed intrinsic superiority to Gaming Laptops gets a bit tiresome and tarnishes the dolphin community.

Quote:zurginator Wrote:
I'm comparing a Laptop that was high-end at the same time as my Desktop.

Your old laptop/desktop comparison doesn't apply. The gap has been closed since then.

The reason I brought up the conversation was largely due the revolutionary advances that have finally shattered the age old myth that laptops have inferior potential specs. With the introduction of Mobile Ivy Bridge, and in particular Extreme Processors, the gap has finally been completely negated in the Cpu department. The 3960xm revision will have the highest clocks of any intel chip, at 3.1Ghz/4Ghz, and as such is considered the strongest next gen chip in the universe. With the introduction of the 7970m, a mobile Gpu can now compete with the highest available Nvidia Desktop processor, the Gtx 580. There are hordes of threads littered with benchmarks proving this fact. Sure eventually Desktop Kepler will actually be available, maybe even by the end of the year, however my point isn't that the 7970m will remain the strongest Gpu of all time, but rather showcasing how the gap has closed to a monumentally thin gap. Most importantly THERE IS NOT A SINGLE GAME ON THE MARKET THAT THE 7970M CAN'T PLAY AT ULTRA SETTINGS WITH FLUID FPS. This was never the case ever since Crysis was introduced in 2007, and followed by games like Metro2033 and The Witcher 2, no non-crossfire/sli mobile gpu could handle them fully. That has finally changed, and as such it should be readily apparent that Elite Gaming Laptops are a perfectly viable, and enviable, gaming solutions.

Quote:Now, back to the real world. When I run Crysis on all high with my high-end laptop, it will be playing at full speed, just like your high-end desktop. That's the point. I guess you guys are never going to understand the real point here. I'm running out of ways to explain this.

This is exactly the point that the obstinate and blind can't fathom. 60 FPS on a laptop will look and feel exactly the same as 60 FPS on a desktop.

NaturalViolence Wrote:Then why did you keep insulting us and claiming we were ignorant to the superiority of laptops?

SlickDragon Wrote:People use whatever their comfortable and accustomed to using, even if its strictly inferior to new innovations. For example people who still use the mailing system, dial-up, pay-phones, land-lines, Tube Tv's, and the list goes on. I in no way retract my statements regarding the Deluded, Misguided, and Criminally Ignorant Desktops Supremacists. While I still hold highly of you, in this instance I feel that you may unfortunately still be under the influence of that pernicious and noxious ideology.

SlickDragon Wrote:there is no reason to buy a Desktop.

And there you go again. You've just proved my point for me. Thank you.

And now on to the corrections/comments:

SlickDragon Wrote:With the introduction of the 7970m, a mobile Gpu can now compete with the highest available Nvidia Desktop processor, the Gtx 580

The GTX 580 is not anywhere close to the highest end desktop GPU from nvidia. That spot belongs to the GTX 680 and GTX 690. Not to mention a GTX 580 is faster than a 7970m by quite a bit.

SlickDragon Wrote:Desktop Kepler will actually be available, maybe even by the end of the year

They're already available! Where the hell have you been these last few months?

SlickDragon Wrote:THERE IS NOT A SINGLE GAME ON THE MARKET THAT THE 7970M CAN'T PLAY AT ULTRA SETTINGS WITH FLUID FPS.

I don't read through many game benchmarks these days but off the top of my head I know that both BF3 and metro 2033 require dual GTX 570/580 in SLI to get 60 fps at 1080p on max settings. Besides this is a side effect of cross platform development and the hardware limitations of current generation consoles. PC games will get a lot more demanding once the next generation of consoles comes out (it's depressed to say, but it's the truth).

SlickDragon Wrote:Also Mxm 3.0b may allow laptops to exceed 100w Gpu's, with the rumors of 130-150w as the projected max for Mobile Gpu's, allowing them to effortlessly compete with the highest tier desktop Gpu's.

High tier desktop GPUs are 200-300w not 130-150w.

SlickDragon Wrote:Yet another absurd statement, this time rife with propaganda and ignorance. Who are you to deem Clevo's highest end laptop "Impractical", while never having seen the model in question. Clevo laptops in general are known for their extremely high tier cooling, and they never have had problems in the past cooling Desktop extreme processors.

Please show me a clevo laptop running a 3960x at 4.8GHz under load with good temperatures. I have trouble believing a laptop is capable of dissipating 250w from the cpu efficiently.

SlickDragon Wrote:Sure the laptops will be big, that should be inherently obvious, however any sensible person spending over $2500+ on a true desktop replacement should already know that before deciding to get one. These are not Macbook Air's/Ultrabooks.

If the advantage/goal of a laptop is portability than why would I want a laptop that's big, heavy, and has terrible battery life (and probably loud depending on how they designed the cooling)?

Starscream Wrote:I think his point was not to call you stupid for using a desktop, his point was to call you (or anyone) stupid for saying that a gaming laptop is not good enough to play high-end games just as a desktop can.

SlickDragon Wrote:That is a blunt but accurate summary of my stance and points in that regard. I don't mind if people use desktops, however spewing propaganda and fables regarding their supposed intrinsic superiority to Gaming Laptops gets a bit tiresome and tarnishes the dolphin community.

He was not trying to make a point. In fact he wasn't even responding to anything that anyone said. We hadn't even mentioned laptops vs. desktops until he showed up. He was just trying to rant about how we should all bow down and worship these superior god tier laptops. I still don't understand why he did it, it just kind of came out of nowhere. Please observe these actual quotes from him:

SlickDragon Wrote:It wont be long now before even the most obstinate and foolhardy Desktop Deluded Elitists will be forced to reassess their misguided and ignorant beliefs regarding their supposed supremacy to Gaming Laptops.

SlickDragon Wrote:Until then mayhap as the sensible and intelligent guy that you seem to be you can reconsider your stance and become enlightened to the changes unfolding in computer hardware. For all the desktop fanboys in the emulation scene, you guys can continue living in your fantasy land, and avert your eyes to the winds of change that are coming.

It's a shame. I held him in very high regards until he randomly started talking like a crazed dictator. "Join the master form factor race destined to destroy desktops! The winds of change are coming!".

Quote:Now, back to the real world. When I run Crysis on all high with my high-end laptop, it will be playing at full speed, just like your high-end desktop. That's the point. I guess you guys are never going to understand the real point here. I'm running out of ways to explain this.

You get 60 fps average on crysis on high settings @ 1366 x 768 with a 6650m? I have a hard time believing that since every benchmark I've ever seen on crysis would suggest otherwise. My GTX 260 C 216 has trouble maintaining 60 fps at that resolution and settings and it's more than twice as fast as your 6650m.

Quote:This was never the case ever since Crysis was introduced in 2007, and followed by games like Metro2033 and The Witcher 2, no non-crossfire/sli mobile gpu could handle them fully. That has finally changed, and as such it should be readily apparent that Elite Gaming Laptops are a perfectly viable, and enviable, gaming solutions.

Yay, gaming laptops can finally run 5 year old games.
Now I want to see this god laptop that can max Crysis 2 w/ High-res and Dx11 packs, 16x (or 64x if you're Nvidia) Anti-Aliasing, at 7680x1600.

Quote:It's by no means a necessity, as recent Gaming Laptops have phenomenal cooling, however it can help the Unparalleled Mobile Extreme chips extend their Oc'ing lead over (Non-Nitrogen Oc'ed) Desktop chips. Also Mxm 3.0b may allow laptops to exceed 100w Gpu's, with the rumors of 130-150w as the projected max for Mobile Gpu's, allowing them to effortlessly compete with the highest tier desktop Gpu's.

I also want to see any laptop GPU that comes anywhere near 4-way 680 SLI. That's a TDP of 1200 watts.

Quote: Also I've already linked the video of A/W liquid cooling by Asetek, which is rumored to be available this year.

It's really just a glorified heatpipe system. Until the laws of physics are broken, Desktops will always be superior to laptops in cooling, due to space.

And continuing that line, Desktops will always be faster --- due to cooling and power abilities. Nobody wants a 2000w laptop (unless some totally nuts battery comes to be, but you've still got cooling issues).

Also, 11,520 x 4,800 (though that many bezels would kill me):

As other people have been disproving things, I feel I need to do something, so:

Quote:the century old "Desktop Experience"

Just to be picky, the first semi-programmable digital computer (ie, an electronic box which took in data and spat out different data), the colossus, wasn't built until 1943. It took up at least one room. Ten were made. Eventually changes in technology (ie transistors etc.) shrank the technology, yet even today, some people still need larger computers than colossus (eg supercomputers or servers). As the technology allows shrinkage the demands go up, so the type of computer only ten of would be needed would be at least the same size. The same happens with actual computers for real people. When it came out, Crysis was more than anything could handle well, yet today it can be run at ridiculously high settings at very high FPS on not much more than mediocre hardware. Despite this, Battlefield 3 won't run at those framerates on its highest settings, because it isn't designed to go on the computers of Crysis' time, but its own time. In a short while, laptops will be able to do it as well as today's best desktop, but there will be some other game/emulator which won't run perfectly on anything but the best hardware. Eventually the gap will shrink between desktop and laptop (eg graphine may make it possible to superheat a CPU without breaking it, in which case, a laptop won't have to dissipate 2500W), but until a cheap laptop can calculate the location of every atom, photon and neutrino in the universe in real time from scanning a piece of cake, there will be things they can't do so well.

(05-09-2012, 01:30 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: [ -> ]You get 60 fps average on crysis on high settings @ 1366 x 768 with a 6650m? I have a hard time believing that since every benchmark I've ever seen on crysis would suggest otherwise. My GTX 260 C 216 has trouble maintaining 60 fps at that resolution and settings and it's more than twice as fast as your 6650m.

I guess you're not following the thread, when I mention "my high-end laptop" in this thread, it means the best laptop around today. Not literally my current laptop.

Laptops can't replace desktop fully for three reasons:
1) Built-in displays usually are cheap TN panels, suck at colour reproduction and viewing angles. Some may say "you can connect external display"
Yeah, sure but most high-end laptops can't operate with closed lid (overheating), also it's essentially turning a laptop into awkward desktop
2) Overheating/noise problems when playing heavy games - you can build a desktop with low rpm fans, use water cooling or even make custom case with fanless heavy heatsinks (requires some skills and quite expensive but if you need a silent PC you'll surely get it.) while laptops usually have small high-rpm fans that make a lot of noise at high load that can collect some dust and system starts to overheat even when you just browse the net.

3) Upgrade. For laptops it's only RAM and HDD in most cases and you can't even add a second HDD. So if you need to upgrade you need to sell old laptop and buy a new one. With desktop you can gradually replace or add parts. For example my PC still runs in case i bought in 2005 and still uses 2 old sound cards.

Quote:I guess you're not following the thread, when I mention "my high-end laptop" in this thread, it means the best laptop around today. Not literally my current laptop.

Well that's very confusing. The word "my" implies that it is real and that you own it.

Quote:1) Built-in displays usually are cheap TN panels, suck at colour reproduction and viewing angles. Some may say "you can connect external display"
Yeah, sure but most high-end laptops can't operate with closed lid (overheating), also it's essentially turning a laptop into awkward desktop
2) Overheating/noise problems when playing heavy games - you can build a desktop with low rpm fans, use water cooling or even make custom case with fanless heavy heatsinks (requires some skills and quite expensive but if you need a silent PC you'll surely get it.) while laptops usually have small high-rpm fans that make a lot of noise at high load that can collect some dust and system starts to overheat even when you just browse the net.

Both of those points are easy to counter-argue.

1) Many high-end laptops have good IPS screens
2) Not always the case. Some laptops can stay quiet and cool while gaming. Cleaning out the dust every few months is a pain though.

Shh, we're on the opposing side (although you have totally valid points).

I don't care if somebody is "on my side". If they state an invalid argument I'm going to point that out. This is why I prefer 1 on 1 debates in rl over group debates, you can't always control what your team members say.