Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

Maybe is "AA enthusiasts" were implementing stuff instead of masturbating on 3 forum threads (or more, over several years in NatVi's case) they would actually be useful for once.

Screenshots!

Here's the proof that an even higher internal resolution can look much better than 4xIR!

Unfortunately, today this is only possible on a screen capable of going as high as 3840x2160, as only the "auto window size"-option in combination with this resolution will produce an even higher internal resolution .
(Unless you use the 9xSSAA-mode, but that one works only in DX9 and not in DX11 or OGL and produces worse results then auto window size + SGSSAA!).


So, for people who do not have a display capable of this, and to get even higher image sharpness, I would recommend adding the option for a custom internal res!

Here are the screenshots - look at the sharpness of the windows of the houses!

I took these shots together with 8xSGSSAA.
Together, this high IR + the better EER sample grid (compared to OGSSAA) provides the ultimate weapon for image quality.

4xIR (= 2560x2112):
http://i.imgur.com/ETwn7Bf.jpg

Auto Window size (= 3840x2160):
http://i.imgur.com/ka2hTbr.jpg


(Sorry that i had to resize them, but the orignal file size was more then 35 MB !
But the difference is stil clearly visible, even after resizing!
Tell me if you want the full 3840x2160 resolution.)


Now you tell me:
Does the higher IR look better or what?

Isn't it worth including?


Another thing is 4x/9xOGSSAA in DX11.
1) Is this technically possible for DX11 and OGL (in case of the 9x-mode)?
2) Would be possible to combine it with MSAA and thus SGSSAA?

delroth Wrote:Maybe is "AA enthusiasts" were implementing stuff instead of masturbating on 3 forum threads (or more, over several years in NatVi's case) they would actually be useful for once.

Did I kill your pets by accident or something?

Two non-programmers are debating the effects of different options on image quality and you feel the need to come into the thread and basically tell them to stop being such horrible people and go become developers?

@Gabbyjay

Why does the 4x IR shot look extremely blurry? Something is wrong here.

Gabbyjay Wrote:1) Is this technically possible for DX11 and OGL (in case of the 9x-mode)?
2) Would be possible to combine it with MSAA and thus SGSSAA?

Yes and yes. As a general rule of thumb if MSAA is possible to implement SSAA is also possible to implement.

Gabbyjay Wrote:When you say Dolphin's internal SSAA's downfilter has better image quality, what are you comparing it to?

MSAA and an equivalent IR. Mainly the latter.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Yet, the filter is the same as in SSAA forced in the driver, no fancy extras here.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Then it should also provide the same IQ results as downsampling via custom resolution created in the driver (see below) gives at the same sample amount.

I doubt that. For some reason dolphins SSAA is only really effective when the IR matches your screen resolution. Nvidias OGSSAA doesn't seem to have that problem. There is clearly a difference in implementation somewhere.

And whose to say that nvidias desktop scaling feature uses the same scaling filter as OGSSAA?

Gabbyjay Wrote:And that point is 4xinternal resolution?

Depends on a number of other things including your screen resolution. Generally 2x2 your screen resolution is the cutoff point. For 1080p this would be around 6x. However anything above your screen resolution should yield better results with SSAA than raising the IR by an equivalent amount.

Gabbyjay Wrote:How should downsampling done by creating custom resolutions in the driver create blur on the textures?
Cause that was the SSAA method i used here, as i described several times now!

Calling that method SSAA is extremely confusing. Call it downscaling so we can seperate this process from conventional SSAA implementations. The filter can cause blurring the same way any other form of SSAA causes it, by combining samples.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Downsampling via custom resolutions NEVER creates such problems, thus it always works (long as your monitor supports it), even on games where normal SSAA would create blur.

It should create as least some blur if the internal resolution is not a perfect integer multiple (2x2, 3x3, 4x4) of the output resolution.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Cause it happens after all this rendering stuff happens, the monitor does the downscaling.

Assuming you're doing it the same way as everyone else this is not true. The downscaling is done by the drivers not the monitor. The signal provided to the monitor remains the same resolution.

The screenshot you provided shows an internal resolution of 3840 x 2400 and an output resolution of 1920 x 1200 which backs this up. Try changing your DVI signal timings to 3840 x 2400, it won't work.

If it were done by the monitor that would be even more likely to create blur since monitor/HDTV downscaling filters aren't designed with AA in mind. They tend to average samples using a linear or polynomial function.

(10-07-2013, 06:33 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: [ -> ]Two non-programmers are debating the effects of different options on image quality and you feel the need to come into the thread and basically tell them to stop being such horrible people and go become developers?

Well it actually makes sense - using the time implementing instead of talking, so no more theorizing but instead to be able to test it in practise.

Quote:4x IR shot look extremely blurry? Something is wrong here.

I think i can answer that.
Please note that i might not be correct, thogh. I would like to find out myself what is actually happening.

I think it happens because the internal resolution (2560x2112) is lower then the display's resolution.
The image gets upscaled to 3840x2160 after that.
Raising the IR to that same resolution makes this effect disappear, as no more upscaling happens and the individual pixels are smaller.

Be aware that the images i provided only provide a cut of the screenshot (as the actual screenshots were about 35 MB large).
It is only the most distant objects where this effect is most visible, it's not that visible on objects closer to the player.

Quote:Yes and yes. As a general rule of thumb if MSAA is possible to implement SSAA is also possible to implement.

I meant if you could use em at the same time, like the good old nVidia hybrid modes?

Quote:When you say Dolphin's internal SSAA's downfilter has better image quality, what are you comparing it to?
---
MSAA and an equivalent IR. Mainly the latter.

Can you explain a lil further? Cause i still don't get it. I made so many comparisons now and i get the best results with SGSSAA.
If i am correct, what Dolphin's SSAA solution does is raising the IR by the applied factor (4x or 9x) and then uses a box-filter do downscale the image to the target resolution.
If this is, as you said earlier, the same filter nVidia's OGSSAA uses and you compare the 4x-mode, for example, with 4xMSAA, quality should be worse (on edges, compared to MSAA in this example).

Quote:For some reason dolphins SSAA is only really effective when the IR matches your screen resolution.

That could be because the downsampling filter is only effective at multiples like 1.5x, 2x, 4x and the like.
This is the same with downsampling done as i described, that's why only factors like these are recommended.
An uneven number produces aliasing.

Maybe this is also the reason why you said, if you raise the IR too high, it will produce aliasing.
I thought about this a lot but i could not find a reason why this should be true.
Perhaps it only applies to uneven numbers.

It's confusing and complicated, i know... dont know if you or anyone else can clear this up.

Quote:Nvidias OGSSAA doesn't seem to have that problem. There is clearly a difference in implementation somewhere.

In general it will never get to the point where it could even encounter the problem, as in a PC-game, you usually don't render to an internal resolution specified by the user, which differ's from the (display's) target resolution.
Or do you mean forcing nVidia's OGSSAA onto Dolphin using the famous 0x00008000 bit?
Cant say much about that, as it does not work in my revision (Dolphin 4.0) and my card (geforce Titan).

Quote:And whose to say that nvidias desktop scaling feature uses the same scaling filter as OGSSAA?

As far as I know, it does. The sample pattern is exactly the same for both. Also, all my experience and comparison for this backs it up, what I did quite a lot.
But i think what you compared was Dolphin's internal SSAA vs an IR at the same end result (like, 2x native vs 1xnative + 4xSSAA)?
Otherwise, how could you tell if downsampling done by a custom resolution provides worse results?
Have you tried it?

Gabbyjay Wrote:Calling that method SSAA is extremely confusing. Call it downscaling so we can seperate this process from conventional SSAA implementations. The filter can cause blurring the same way any other form of SSAA causes it, by combining samples.

Because both is the same subform of SSAA: OGSSAA.

Quote:It should create as least some blur if the internal resolution is not a perfect integer multiple (2x2, 3x3, 4x4) of the output resolution.

Yes, uneven multiples create aliasing (shimmer), as described above.
Only even numbers are advised in this regard.

Uneven numbers nevertheless have their advantages, sometimes you just want a larger FOV.

Quote:Assuming you're doing it the same way as everyone else this is not true. The downscaling is done by the drivers not the monitor. The signal provided to the monitor remains the same resolution.

But not the number of actual pixels, as you can also see in the screenshot.
I mean i surely can be wrong about this, as i have not given it much thought where it actually happens, but why should it work only on certain monitors, and only to a certain amount, if the monitor had nothing to do with it?
If the signal was the same and the downscaling happens only on the GPU, you could easily raise the resolution to 16x or whatever. But there's always a certain limit depending on the individual monitor. You gotta try yourself finding the limit of what the monitor is capable of, sometimes by changing the number of actual pixels, sometimes you even have to lower the refresh rate.
On some monitors, it does not work at all!
Also, in nVidia's drivers, you have to select the "perform scaling on display"-option:
http://imgur.com/JTtNASg
But OK, perhaps I am wrong, it is only of minor importance here. The point is, the downscaling happens AFTER all rendering is done and after all post processing effects. That is why it works in every game and why it also improves the quality of post processing effects injected by programs such as SweetFX!
Try it, you can easily see the difference.
It works even in those games where driver OGSSAA or SGSSAA won't work or causes errors, artifacts, blur and the like.

Edit: Well, thinking about this, i agree that the scaling is performed in the driver.
But as i said, only of minor importance, my point is that it happens after all post processing effects are applied.
It will not cause blur (unless you count the Anti-Aliasing itself as blur, of course).

Between me and shonumi over in your other thread I don't know how you find the time to test this stuff. I haven't had a forum thread this engaging in a long time.

Gabbyjay Wrote:I think i can answer that.
Please note that i might not be correct, thogh. I would like to find out myself what is actually happening.

I think it happens because the internal resolution (2560x2112) is lower then the display's resolution.
The image gets upscaled to 3840x2160 after that.
Raising the IR to that same resolution makes this effect disappear, as no more upscaling happens and the individual pixels are smaller.

Be aware that the images i provided only provide a cut of the screenshot (as the actual screenshots were about 35 MB large).
It is only the most distant objects where this effect is most visible, it's not that visible on objects closer to the player.

This sounds logical. So you're using a high IR, SGSSAA, and downscaling all at the same time. Why would you do that? This completely invalidates the comparison until you remove the second layer of downscaling.

Gabbyjay Wrote:I meant if you could use em at the same time, like the good old nVidia hybrid modes?

It could be done. It would probably require some pretty unclean code though since you would have to make them two separate options.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Can you explain a lil further? Cause i still don't get it. I made so many comparisons now and i get the best results with SGSSAA.

Sounds about right.

Nvidia SGSSAA > Nvidia OGSSAA > Dolphins SSAA > High IR > MSAA

Of course these things can be combined which enables over a dozen possible configurations (not even including variation from different sample counts) which would make this hierarchy phenomenally complicated to write out in full.

No idea where Nvidia downscaling would fit in.

Gabbyjay Wrote:If i am correct, what Dolphin's SSAA solution does is raising the IR by the applied factor (4x or 9x) and then uses a box-filter do downscale the image to the target resolution.

Pretty much. 4x SSAA is equivalent to doubling the IR and 9x SSAA is equivalent to tripling it. On top of that they each have a different scaling filter.

Gabbyjay Wrote:If this is, as you said earlier, the same filter nVidia's OGSSAA uses and you compare the 4x-mode, for example, with 4xMSAA, quality should be worse (on edges, compared to MSAA in this example).

I don't think I said that. In fact I'm pretty sure I stated the exact opposite. The resolve filters are likely different.

Gabbyjay Wrote:That could be because the downsampling filter is only effective at multiples like 1.5x, 2x, 4x and the like.
This is the same with downsampling done as i described, that's why only factors like these are recommended.
An uneven number produces aliasing.

That wasn't what I was talking about at all. Nvidias OGSSAA works effectively at any IR while dolphins OGSSAA doesn't.

As far as your statement goes it depends on the implementation. The resolve filter used more specifically.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Maybe this is also the reason why you said, if you raise the IR too high, it will produce aliasing.
I thought about this a lot but i could not find a reason why this should be true.
Perhaps it only applies to uneven numbers.

No. A linear scaling algorithm is not ideal for AA. It's as simple as that.

Gabbyjay Wrote:In general it will never get to the point where it could even encounter the problem, as in a PC-game, you usually don't render to an internal resolution specified by the user, which differ's from the (display's) target resolution.

I don't know what you're saying here without you specify what "it" and "problem" are referring to.

My point is that nvidias OGSSAA works effectively at any IR while dolphins OGSSAA doesn't.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Or do you mean forcing nVidia's OGSSAA onto Dolphin using the famous 0x00008000 bit?

Yes. When I say "Nvidias OGSSAA" I'm talking about nvidia's driver OGSSAA. What else would I be talking about?

Gabbyjay Wrote:Cant say much about that, as it does not work in my revision (Dolphin 4.0) and my card (geforce Titan).

I find that extremely difficult to believe. You likely didn't configure it correctly.

Gabbyjay Wrote:As far as I know, it does. The sample pattern is exactly the same for both. Also, all my experience and comparison for this backs it up, what I did quite a lot.

How do you know that?

Gabbyjay Wrote:But i think what you compared was Dolphin's internal SSAA vs an IR at the same end result (like, 2x native vs 1xnative + 4xSSAA)?

Yes. Apparently that wasn't clear. I will never refer to your downscaling method as SSAA because that would be confusing as all hell.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Otherwise, how could you tell if downsampling done by a custom resolution provides worse results?
Have you tried it?

No. Which is why I have tried to avoid talking about it.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Because both is the same subform of SSAA: OGSSAA.

But different implementations. It's impossible to tell when one you're talking about if you use the exact same term to refer to both of them.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Uneven numbers nevertheless have their advantages, sometimes you just want a larger FOV.

This shouldn't effect FoV.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Yes, uneven multiples create aliasing (shimmer), as described above.
Only even numbers are advised in this regard.

I would expect blurring to be more common than shimmering depending on the resolve filter used.

Gabbyjay Wrote:But not the number of actual pixels, as you can also see in the screenshot.

Actually yes, the number of actual pixels (active pixels) is 1920 x 1200. It has remained unchanged.

Gabbyjay Wrote:I mean i surely can be wrong about this, as i have not given it much thought where it actually happens, but why should it work only on certain monitors, and only to a certain amount, if the monitor had nothing to do with it?

Because they fuck around with the sync intervals. For whatever reason after a certain resolution the scaling feature doesn't work unless you raise the total number of pixels (by raising the sync intervals).

Gabbyjay Wrote:If the signal was the same and the downscaling happens only on the GPU, you could easily raise the resolution to 16x or whatever.

You would think so but for whatever reason this clearly isn't the case.

Gabbyjay Wrote:But there's always a certain limit depending on the individual monitor. You gotta try yourself finding the limit of what the monitor is capable of, sometimes by changing the number of actual pixels, sometimes you even have to lower the refresh rate.

Again different monitors have different tolerance for sync timings.

Gabbyjay Wrote:On some monitors, it does not work at all!

*shrugs*

Gabbyjay Wrote:Also, in nVidia's drivers, you have to select the "perform scaling on display"-option:
http://imgur.com/JTtNASg

This is the exact opposite of what every guide I have seen for it says to do.

Gabbyjay Wrote:But OK, perhaps I am wrong, it is only of minor importance here. The point is, the downscaling happens AFTER all rendering is done and after all post processing effects. That is why it works in every game and why it also improves the quality of post processing effects injected by programs such as SweetFX!
Try it, you can easily see the difference.
It works even in those games where driver OGSSAA or SGSSAA won't work or causes errors, artifacts, blur and the like.

It's also the reason why blurring can occur. Which is what I was talking about.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Edit: Well, thinking about this, i agree that the scaling is performed in the driver.

Gah. After I write all of that.

Gabbyjay Wrote:But as i said, only of minor importance, my point is that it happens after all post processing effects are applied.
It will not cause blur (unless you count the Anti-Aliasing itself as blur, of course).

That logic doesn't make any sense. All SSAA resolve implementations are post processing. So please explain how there are so many that clearly cause blurring. Everything has to be just right to not cause blurring. It's an art.

After this wall of text I think I'm not going to do any more responses until Tuesday. Maybe Monday.

(10-07-2013, 09:17 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: [ -> ]Between me and shonumi over in your other thread I don't know how you find the time to test this stuff.

Magic.

Quote:This sounds logical. So you're using a high IR, SGSSAA, and downscaling all at the same time. Why would you do that

I use downsampling (via custom driver resolutions) with Dolphin since it works on post processing effects (SweetFX in my case). Not all the time tho, it depends.

Quote:This completely invalidates the comparison until you remove the second layer of downscaling.

No, the screenshots were taken before the downscaling. You get a complete 3840x2160 picture here, exactly as it would look on a corresponding display. So there is actually no second layer of downscaling on the screenshots provided.

Quote:It could be done. It would probably require some pretty unclean code though since you would have to make them two separate options.

Yep, two seperate options! Hybrid-mode FTW!
I vote for it!

Quote:Nvidia SGSSAA > Nvidia OGSSAA > Dolphins SSAA > High IR > MSAA

Exactly. Only thing i could not test yet, was nVidia OGSSAA in Dolphin. Don't seem to work in 4.0 as far as i tried.
How do you get it to work?

Quote:No idea where Nvidia downscaling would fit in.

I would say same as their OGSSAA.
Problem is, it is not possible to provide any screenshots proving this to you, as i would have to take a picture of my monitor with my camera, which will not suffice obviously.
Taking a screenshot with F9 or SweetFX won't work, as you will get the full resolution without downsampling.
Sometimes you just gotta see things in practise, theorizing just will not suffice in this case I'm afraid.

Quote:Pretty much. 4x SSAA is equivalent to doubling the IR and 9x SSAA is equivalent to tripling it. On top of that they each have a different scaling filter.

Any info about that would be welcome...

Gabbyjay Wrote:I don't think I said that. In fact I'm pretty sure I stated the exact opposite. The resolve filters are likely different.

Well you said: "Same. A box filter."
Seems we got a musunderstanding here - you wanna say it's not the same filter, only the same type of filter?
Again, more information needed.

Quote:No. A linear scaling algorithm is not ideal for AA. It's as simple as that.

Now that is what i wanted to know, now it makes sense.
Any chance of applying a better algorithm on that one (optionally)?

Quote:My point is that nvidias OGSSAA works effectively at any IR while dolphins OGSSAA doesn't.

I would like to test this in practice.
Therefore, I need to know how to get it working with Dolphin, if it even works.
I cannot get it to work with 4.0.
But I would be very interested as it would give some nice options.

What is your config on that one?

BTW, sometimes Dolphin's OGSSAA dont seem to work at all.
Could not get it to work in F-Zero GX when using the DX9-Plugin, no matter what IR settings i tried.

Quote:Yes. Apparently that wasn't clear. I will never refer to your downscaling method as SSAA because that would be confusing as all hell.

We often hear this from people who have not used it yet.
In my country, it is simply known as "Downsampling". May be confusing since this word is used in other context too, but that's the word that everyone using it refers it to, so i will stick to it.
Don't know about other countries, but you may have noticed that i added "by custom driver resolutions" every time, to make it more clear and to avoid that confusion.
BTW, you should try it some time. In many cases, it's the only option you have for using FSAA in a game.

Quote:This shouldn't effect FoV.

Dont forget that there are not only 3D-Games out there.
It also works on 2D-Games and I used this to my advantage in many strategy-games a lot.
Course you will lose some details, no way around that in 2D; but as it's not always only about visuals, this can make sense as your gameplay can take advantage of the wider FoV a LOT.

Quote:It's also the reason why blurring can occur. Which is what I was talking about.

Now wait a minute!
What kind of blurring are you referring to now?
If you force SSAA to a game, it can collide with rendering techniques, which blurs the whole image.
Witcher 2 is a good example for this!
Try forcing SGSSAA and the whole image looks like you need new glasses.
This will NOT happen by downsampling (via custom driver resolutions).

Quote:Gah. After I write all of that.

Er... no, i actually edited my posting before your reply was here. Don't know how long it took you to write it, but I got even more information in the mean time.
It's all about forcing (!) the driver into the scaling mode, which is why it won't work with some driver revisions.

Quote:That logic doesn't make any sense. All SSAA resolve implementations are post processing. So please explain how there are so many that clearly cause blurring.

Take deferred rendering, the most common example.
"One more rather important disadvantage is that, due to separating the lighting stage from the geometric stage, hardware anti-aliasing does not produce correct results any more: although the first pass used when rendering the basic properties (diffuse, normal etc.) can use anti-aliasing, it's not until full lighting has been applied that anti-alias is needed."
(copy-pasted from wiki).
I think this pretty much makes it clear.
Now, downsampling by custom driver resolutions is not affected by this, because the game does not treat it any different than it would treat a monitor that actually uses this resolution.
You have to set the higher resolution in the game menu to make it work!
The game engine does not interfere with the downsampling process, as far as the game it is concerned, it actually "thinks" it has a monitor with a higher resolution, hence it even shows the new resolution in it's ingame graphic settings.
Got it?

It's actually amusing how many people here TALK about features they never even tried.
"What you say is not possible, cause blablalba." "Have you tried it?" "No." It's a shame.