Dolphin, the GameCube and Wii emulator - Forums

Random thought beating around my head, but what kind of performance would the pentium G620 and Celeron G530 get in Dolphin?
Because I tried underclocking my processor tho their frequencies and disabling 2 cores, and I found that most games ran identically on HLE audio.
Or is that the 6mb of L3 cache?

Impossible to say with complete certainty. We don't have a whole lot of data to go as far as relationship between cache size and dolphin performance (combined with differences in microarchitectures, for example one architecture may depend on the L2/L3 cache size more than another due to design tradeoffs).

I can say with absolute certainty that there seems to be a significant benefit in increasing the L2/L3 cache size up to about 3MB. How do I know this? For awhile Core 2 duo processors with 1MB of cache are sold under the name "celeron dual core" (E3000 series) and models with 2MB of cache were sold under the name "pentium dual core" (E5000 and E6000 series) while regular core 2 duos had 3-6MB of cache (E6050, E7000, and E8000 series). Users using the pentium dual core and celeron dual core cpus experienced significantly worse performance at similar clock rates compared to to core 2 duos.

However the impact of cache sizes above 3MB is less clear. It's harder to compile data from that range but we can assume the difference to be small if any because benchmarks show that with modern intel chips most dual threaded cache heavy applications tend to peak at around 3-4MB. Heavily multithreaded applications often need a lot of cache space so that's probably the main reason why the i5 2500K has 6MB (since it's a quad core cpu). But I highly doubt you would see a significant difference between 3MB and 6MB of L3 cache (maybe 4% at the absolute most). The main differences in performance would come from:

1. Lower clock rates (most of the reduction in performance will come from this)

2. Dual core (quad core offers a small speedup to dolphin even with LLE on thread off due to running the more minor threads and background tasks on seperate cores, 10-15% speedup usually)

3. Slower memory controllers (they run at 1066MHz instead of 1333 MHz if I recall), difference from this should be very small, if any, maybe 5-10%

4. The celeron has a 2MB cache which might actually have a fairly significant performance hit, hard to tell how much though since I don't think we've ever had a user report there performance with one of those cpus

5. Maybe 4% speedup from the extra cache comparing a pentium against an i5 (3MB vs. 6MB)

Quote:Because I tried underclocking my processor tho their frequencies and disabling 2 cores, and I found that most games ran identically on HLE audio.

Measure your performance with the framelimiter off. Just because it can get 100% speed either way does not mean that it's not faster when running at a higher clock rate.

So the g620 would be preferable?

I find that an average of 40 fps is lost without framelimit on for most games.
(@ 2.6 ghz dual core.)

Also, HD 2000 can do 2x native on Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.
(Just out of Boredom.)

Quote:I find that an average of 40 fps is lost without framelimit on for most games.

What the hell does that mean? Framerate should be HIGHER with framelimit off.

Just tell me what your vps is at each clock rate with framelimiting off.

After lurking on the Dolphin forums for a few months I can say without a doubt that NV's dedication to informing and helping members (on a wide range of issues) is unparalleled (40 Pages??). Major props NV, pcsx2 forums could really benefit from your dedication (when you inevitably look into it), although they have an equivalent member named Rezard who shares many of your viewpoints and characteristics. I know who's opinions I'd want regarding Dolphin when I buy a new Ivy Bridge laptop in a couple months

Quote:is unparalleled (40 Pages??).

Normally I would not dedicate this much time to helping someone but he was very nice/polite and seemed genuinely curious about various topics. He also put the time in to read everything thoroughly instead of skimming. This is very different from most users who just want us to fix something for them and have no curiosity about what caused the problem or how the system works. "I got this error message, quickly tell me what I need to do to fix it" and then when we give them the answer they are looking for we will never see them again. Although I can't blame them for doing this (since many of them are not very computer literate), I'm just not going to dedicate as much time towards a detailed answer if they're clearly not curious about it.

Quote:After lurking on the Dolphin forums for a few months I can say without a doubt that NV's dedication to informing and helping members (on a wide range of issues) is unparalleled

Reasons why:
1. I have too much free time for my own good and don't feel like spending it doing actual work(although in a way this is work, just not anywhere near as tedious as USEFUL work).

2. I usually have some kind background knowledge, background experience, or data source in the subject area. I try not to make assumptions when I don't have one of these since they tend to bite me in the ass later on but I certainly won't deny that I do make them sometimes.

3. I occasionally go on the IRC channel and/or browse the googlecode page for dolphin. This means I usually have at least a decent idea of what each dev is working on and do sometimes seek developer knowledge when it's clear that there is a question arising on the forums that no one can answer.

4. This is the only forum I go on right now. I don't know why/how but I got sucked into the community big time, even addicted to some degree where it was part of my daily routine for awhile.

5. It really bothers me when people give bad answers, even more than no answer at all, so I feel like I have to answer the question correctly whenever I see an error (perfectionism/addiction). And it bothers me even more when people try to fight the experienced members without providing any data sources (even though we rarely provide any sources other than our experience, which is hypocritical).

6. If you look through my post history you can even see me slowly refining my method from retarded rant to my current method which involved breaking apart posts into statements to quote and dividing long answers to these statements into paragraphs and numbered lists (and editing, I keep improving the post until I get the post just right).

But mostly number 1 (too much free time). I've become so good at answering people thoroughly and quickly simply because of the sheer amount of time I've spent here, number of posts I've posted, number of posts I've read, and number of times I've been corrected or corrected someone else. As with anything in life practice makes perfect, or to put it another way: time x exposure to knowledge/practice = learned knowledge/skill

I think I might be beginning to ease off now that I have less free time, but we'll see. The first thing that I do when this happens is stop reading/posting in support since it takes 4x as long to go through that section than all the other sections combined (due to frequency of posts, length of posts, and level of detail needed for proper answers). In fact this is the only post I'll have time to make today.

Quote:Major props NV, pcsx2 forums could really benefit from your dedication (when you inevitably look into it),

I don't know about that, maybe. The GC was my teenage console (before I switched to PC gaming and never looked back). Never owned a PS2 so I certainly won't feel the same sense of nostalgia for its game library. And without the nostalgia I lose interest quickly and never end up putting in the time needed to complete the game.

Have they banned squall over there yet (this is a good gauge of how strict the mods are)?

Quote:although they have an equivalent member named Rezard who shares many of your viewpoints and characteristics.

It seems that most forums have someone like me (someone with too much free time that feels the need to answer every unanswered or insufficiently answered question). Out of curiosity what exactly are some of these viewpoints and characteristics?

Quote:I know who's opinions I'd want regarding Dolphin when I buy a new Ivy Bridge laptop in a couple months

Sure thing, PM me or leave a post in the newly created hardware section.

Quote: Normally I would not dedicate this much time to helping someone but he was very nice/polite and seemed genuinely curious about various topics. He also put the time in to read everything thoroughly instead of skimming. This is very different from most users who just want us to fix something for them and have no curiosity about what caused the problem or how the system works.

Makes sense that you would dedicate more time/effort to someone who is genuinely interested, as opposed to a "hit and run" new member.

Quote:Reasons why:

1) I'm in a similar boat, sometimes an aversion to actual work is in order. Unfortunately if that goes on too long consequences can and likely will arise.

2) Indeed you seem to have a fair amount of knowledge relative to your years. When you do speculate or assume something you seem to usually differentiate that thought from those you base on more concrete theory/experience.

3) That's certainly beneficial to the Dolphin community, and is commendable. It would seem that one of the major differences between Pcsx2 forums and Dolphin is the involvement of Devs. The former are always around imbuing their wisdom on nearly every matter, and in general they are all on the same page due to their core being just a handful of active developers. With Dolphin things seem to be more disorganized and complex due to the sheer amount of contributors to the project, and as such mediators like yourself are vital to keep things relatively stable.

4) I've had experience being a prominent member of a well known gaming community, so I understand how one can get sucked into it.

5) It's understandable that you feel the need to rectify what you consider misleading information, but in truth it may benefit you to curb the fervent need to address every questionable statement made. There will come a point where you realize that it's not possible to be on top of everything, and it will likely backfire as you'll become entirely indifferent. Best to impose some sense of moderation, although at the end of the day you will do as you please.

6) Yes with time and effort you've honed your craft, although I have not seen enough of your initial posts to accurately gauge most of the modifications.

Quote:I don't know about that, maybe. The GC was my teenage console (before I switched to PC gaming and never looked back). Never owned a PS2 so I certainly won't feel the same sense of nostalgia for its game library. And without the nostalgia I lose interest quickly and never end up putting in the time needed to complete the game.

I realize that you must have been a Nintendo kid growing up, as you'd long since have been a prolific member at Pcsx2 if you had grown up playing a PS2 as well. Without a doubt nostalgia is the biggest motivator in seeing a game to completion and holding ones interest. Sadly I've called it quits many a time in the midst of a game due to not having a nostalgic boost. I have found Lets Plays as a good stimulus to completing games and enhancing my experience. Sometimes watching a top tier LP'er like SSoHPKC or Hcbailly is more entertaining then playing the game. Nonetheless you may end up migrating to Pcsx2 if your interest is piqued enough, and time allows it.

Quote:Have they banned squall over there yet (this is a good gauge of how strict the mods are)?

In truth I'm largely a lurker (atm) of Pcsx2 although my allegiance is to them. I hold Squall in high regard, regardless of his elitist attitude and acerbic tone at times. Even when he harshly conflicts with admins/mods/veteran members, its undeniable that he is extremely knowledgeable, and for the most part helpful. As such its very unlikely that he will suffer through any lasting punitive measures, atleast not without raising the ire of many of his supporters. Pcsx2 moderators are not a police state, and as such there is a fair amount of freedom and lax tolerated. Only in regards to piracy are they officially more strict than Dolphin, but even then they will follow a "Dont Ask, Dont Tell' policy.

Quote:It seems that most forums have someone like me (someone with too much free time that feels the need to answer every unanswered or insufficiently answered question). Out of curiosity what exactly are some of these viewpoints and characteristics?

Well Rezard doesn't share the need to answer and address every question, although in truth very few adhere to that approach as its not sustainable. The reason i initially made the correlation between you guys is due to assessing the similarities and differences of the top 2 emulators of our generation, namely Pcsx2/Dolphin. The first thing that most wonder is which is more complete, compatible, accurate, and most importantly (for the masses) generally faster (lower hardware requirements, or the ability to utilize new technological advances such as Quad Core support, instruction sets, etc). Other comparisons that are made include Developer involvement, forum support, documentation, and the roles of every branch of the community (Admins/Coders/Mods/Translators/Reputable Members/New Members etc). After reading a plethora of Rezard's posts I noted his progression from early 2010 as a semi-ignorant but intelligently curious individual, to his present status as arguably the most helpful member in the community. In the interim he seemed to have accumulated a fair amount of knowledge, hardware skill, technological savvy, and was always up to date with the developers and the recent changes in SVN's. When i started perusing the Dolphin forums, and noted a fair amount of dual members aka squall, tuanming, synce etc etc, it struck me that you seemed to be the Dolphin equivalent to Rezard. When you mayhap transition into Pcsx2 you'll notice some of the similarities. Suffice it to say that the comparison is complimentary as you both imbue your respective communities with a vital presence that would be sorely missed in your absences.

Quote: Sure thing, PM me or leave a post in the newly created hardware section.

I will run it by you before the day of purchase, albeit your forte seems to be more desktop oriented. I've found that Dolphin doesn't take to kindly to laptops relative to Pcsx2, so in any case i'll be getting an ultra high tier gaming laptop in the $1700-2700 range, with no less than a 3720qm- gtx 660m/670m, and possibly a bios overclockable laptop brand( ridiculously not all support it EVEN with extreme processors...) with a 3920xm-gtx 670m/675m.

Quote:I'm in a similar boat, sometimes an aversion to actual work is in order. Unfortunately if that goes on too long consequences can and likely will arise.

Yeah, we've certainly all been there before. One time we actually had a member who asked the mods to ban him because he was spending too much time on here.

Quote: It would seem that one of the major differences between Pcsx2 forums and Dolphin is the involvement of Devs. The former are always around imbuing their wisdom on nearly every matter, and in general they are all on the same page due to their core being just a handful of active developers. With Dolphin things seem to be more disorganized and complex due to the sheer amount of contributors to the project, and as such mediators like yourself are vital to keep things relatively stable.

I would love nothing more than for the dolphin devs to be that active with the community. In fact there would probably be no reason for someone like me to exist here if they answered some user questions from time to time. Getting info. out of them can be a pain sometimes (mainly because a lot of the most active developers seem to be the least active on IRC). It's kind of sad that most of the community has no idea who the developers are or what they work on.

However I understand why they avoid the forums like the plague. The fact is as much as I love this place it is filled with idiots (I hate to call them that, since they mainly just lack exposure to the subject material), and trying to explain the details of an emulator to someone like that is very tedious and time consuming. They would certainly do a much better job than I can but they don't want to put the time to deal with all of that, and honestly we can't blame them for that since it's very understandable. A lot of developers used to be active on the forums but eventually either got tired of it or too busy to keep doing it.

I'm sure part of the reason is that we have such a large base of contributors like you said and development gets a bit chaotic at times due to the "contribute whatever you want as long as long as you can prove that it's a legitimate improvement" attitude towards development. But I am a bit stunned at the idea of an open source emulator development team being so active with the community. For large scale projects that's rare, even if the team is more focused.

They might have a small number of developers compared to dolphin but isn't the user base just as big if not bigger?

Do they post a lot on the forums or just use devblogs? It's hard for developers to keep up with the forums when they're filled with hordes of inexperienced newbies. Devblogs are a much better way for developers to address large communities in my opinion.

Quote:4) I've had experience being a prominent member of a well known gaming community, so I understand how one can get sucked into it.

It's happened to me one other time. A modding community for rts games (rise of nations and age of empires II) that I was part of back in high school. I think in that community I posted/talked more than anyone else but didn't actually contribute a whole lot of work (man, now you have me thinking about this, I don't think I have made even one texture since then). After that place collapsed it left a dark hole inside me for about a year, I wanted to keep doing the things that I had learned there but couldn't seem to find a similar community that interested me. A lot of the members went on to do really awesome stuff, a few years later a couple of them joined up with wildfire games and even invited me to join (I was just going off to college at the time so I didn't have the time and had to turn them down). Two of them were hired by firaxis games. And a couple of the old members that I have managed to get in touch with seem to be doing well. I learned more from that community than any other person/group/organization in my life. They essentially made me who I am, started my interest in computers. After that experience I never touched my game consoles again, it felt weird playing a game that I couldn't modify and using a system that I had little control over.

Quote:sometimes an aversion to actual work is in order. Unfortunately if that goes on too long consequences can and likely will arise.

Quote:There will come a point where you realize that it's not possible to be on top of everything, and it will likely backfire as you'll become entirely indifferent. Best to impose some sense of moderation, although at the end of the day you will do as you please.

So true. It already backfired.

Quote:although I have not seen enough of your initial posts to accurately gauge most of the modifications.

Good, they make me sick to read. Although they do certainly make me realize my accomplishments, "wow, I was completely retarded, and probably still am compared to future me".

Quote:In truth I'm largely a lurker (atm) of Pcsx2 although my allegiance is to them. I hold Squall in high regard, regardless of his elitist attitude and acerbic tone at times. Even when he harshly conflicts with admins/mods/veteran members, its undeniable that he is extremely knowledgeable, and for the most part helpful. As such its very unlikely that he will suffer through any lasting punitive measures, atleast not without raising the ire of many of his supporters. Pcsx2 moderators are not a police state, and as such there is a fair amount of freedom and lax tolerated. Only in regards to piracy are they officially more strict than Dolphin, but even then they will follow a "Dont Ask, Dont Tell' policy.

I hold him in high regards too, but mainly because his posts are hilarious from time to time. Which makes browsing/posting so much less tedious.

Quote:I will run it by you before the day of purchase, albeit your forte seems to be more desktop oriented.

I have a lot more experience with them. I've always owned a laptop (since 2003) but I never use them because desktops are just so much more productive/powerful. The only advantage laptops offer is portability, which I suppose is good if you travel a lot or constantly need to get work done on the go. But lets face it, the average person spends most of their day either at home or at work, and in either area they have access to a desktop.

[rant/story]
When I was at my first university I noticed that practically everyone had a laptop instead of a desktop because that's what people think of these days when they hear the word "computer". Walk into the computer section at a best buy and what do you see, laptops everywhere. The idea that has made them so popular is "why not just get something portable just in case?". What struck me about this was the fact they 95% of them never took the laptop anywhere, they always left it set up in their dorm room like a desktop (mousepad + mouse, plugged into an outlet). So I always urge people to think to themselves "when am I going to need the portability?" whenever they plan on buying a laptop. Some people do need the portability, but I think you'll find that most people don't, they just think they will need it in the future for some reason and are too scared to buy a system that isn't portable in case they do end up needing it. I can't even count the number of times I've heard people say "I'm going to college so I need a laptop" or people recommending users laptops if they are going to college. It's totally illogical to think that your average college student travels a lot or does lots of work on the go yet it seems that everyone thinks this.

I'm not sure if the average user fully appreciates the value of having a large high resolution monitor, a full size keyboard, a mouse, and fast hardware (and sometimes multi-monitor). These things can more than triple your productivity. And some people may think "well I don't do a lot of work on my computer", but that fact is the time savings do really add up no matter what you're doing with your system. Everything just goes faster/smoother on a desktop unless it's horribly out of date.
[/rant]

Quote: I've found that Dolphin doesn't take to kindly to laptops relative to Pcsx2, so in any case i'll be getting an ultra high tier gaming laptop in the $1700-2700 range, with no less than a 3720qm- gtx 660m/670m, and possibly a bios overclockable laptop brand( ridiculously not all support it EVEN with extreme processors...) with a 3920xm-gtx 670m/675m.

I wouldn't, I really wouldn't.

1. That's an outrageous amount of money to spend on a laptop.
2. Laptop overclocking is a really bad idea, period (do I even need to point out why?).
3. You're overestimated how demanding dolphin is. We have a few very demanding games that will run poorly on nearly any hardware and the rest should run fine on any high end laptop.
4. High end laptops are more prone to overheating and end up being higher maintenance (faster fans and wider ventilation also means dust builds up faster in most of them).
5. High end laptops tend to have very poor battery life, even today.

Anyways, you've officially been promoted from lurker to well informed poster, so congratulations and welcome to the forums (I would recommend that you get on IRC if you want to actually learn anything technical though).

Quote:A lot of developers used to be active on the forums but eventually either got tired of it or too busy to keep doing it.

Well atleast they were around at one time, therefore archived threads may include their input on early revisions. Its understandable how many viewed it as a burden.

Quote:But I am a bit stunned at the idea of an open source emulator development team being so active with the community. For large scale projects that's rare, even if the team is more focused.

Well its true, there's a full scale community on Pcsx2 that constantly discuss a plethora of matters not necessarily related to hardware requirements or bugs/problems, and many of the team seamlessly blend in with the active community and are always around.

Quote:but isn't the user base just as big if not bigger

I believe its a fair amount larger, or at the very least it feeeeeeeeels like its larger due to the more active discussions and the rapidly expanding user base. I haven't done a thorough stat check so perhaps I'm slightly off..

Quote:Do they post a lot on the forums or just use devblogs? It's hard for developers to keep up with the forums when they're filled with hordes of inexperienced newbies. Devblogs are a much better way for developers to address large communities in my opinion.

Tens of thousand combined posts over the past 5 odd years, sometimes in conjuction with dev blogs. Also the Svn's on google code are usually a hotbed of discussion due to the fewer amounts of commits, with a relatively high rate of substantial commits (i.e Cottonvibes legendary Mtvu hack http://code.google.com/p/pcsx2/source/detail?r=4865)

Even when noobs strike occasionally devs or atleast admins help out and point them in the right direction.

Quote:I learned more from that community than any other person/group/organization in my life. They essentially made me who I am, started my interest in computers.

Sounds like a good overall experience, it was a stage of your life that you (believe you) grew from, but inevitably it had to end.

Quote:After that place collapsed it left a dark hole inside me for about a year

Understandably you felt a void, since that was an integral part of your life and daily schedule. Based on my experience its nearly impossible to fully erase that void, as it was a vital part of your past. Ideally you'll come to realize it was a stage of your life, and as one gets older and avenues close off you'll have to steel yourself and continue plunging onward. Trust me it may have been worse if it didn't close down and you felt you had to leave, and then years later you see it still active and thriving, and occasionally people wonder what happened to NV, and reminisce about those times, and mourn for their communities loss of not having you.

Quote:So true. It already backfired.

Only surprised it took so long, you have some stubborn fighting spirit ablaze in you that has pushed you beyond the norm. If you have great Force of Will (great Magic Card btw) you can dictate your path and shape your natural tendencies.

Quote:"wow, I was completely retarded, and probably still am compared to future me".

I am intimately familiar with that viewpoint, and i believe its a prerequisite for continued mental and character growth.

Quote:I hold him in high regards too, but mainly because his posts are hilarious from time to time

Good that you realize that his style is a boon to any community he's involved with, and as such it would be criminal to stifle the flare that sparks life into threads and disrupts the tame and droll feel

Quote:Which makes browsing/posting so much less tedious

.
I've had quite a lot of experience with igniting wildfires ( figuratively ofcourse... leave me alooooone http://www.smokeybear.com/) in communities, and I can guarantee you that the absence of those sparks is solely missed when replaced by the stagnant swamp that is normalcy.

Quote: I've always owned a laptop (since 2003)

Owning a laptop and defending the merits of laptops is another thing entirely. It's clear from

Quote: but I never use them because desktops are just so much more productive/powerful.

this statement that you don't hold highly off them. I already knew that you felt this way, and it would be nearly impossible to persuade you otherwise, barring major advancement in the coming decades that greatly narrow the gap between them. I also don't believe that the ONLY merit is

Quote:The only advantage laptops offer is portability, which I suppose is good if you travel a lot or constantly need to get work done on the go.

, but wont deny that a fair amount of people share your sentiment.

Slick Rant:
Personally i enjoy the convenience and intrinsic laziness of being able to watch anime/tv shows/movies, work my online business, and play emulated games/pc games etc etc all while lying down or lounging around my house, including a painless hdmi to my 46" Lcd when i feel like it. Being constrained largely to a desk with a Desktop is far from ideal, and for double the price you can get largely equivalent performance in a laptop. There is a fair amount of difference between mid range laptops/ultraportables and desktop replacement gaming laptops. It's not hard to compare top tier mobile hardware with desktop components, and see for yourself that the differences aren't staggering. For example current mobile gpu king GTX 580m is nearly equivalent to a Gtx 560ti, which is more than enough for 99% of current gaming needs. The new lineups of Cpu/Gpu benefit from die shrinks/new architecture by consuming less tdp, which means that laptops will be able to get even closer to desktop performance. While upgrade ability is decidedly limited relative to desktops, there still is some breathing room in regards to mxm graphic card upgrades, and even cpu upgradeability. Ram, hdd/ssd, monitor, keyboard, wifi etc are also usually upgradeable. Sure you are paying a premium, but its not like your receiving a bulldozer for your $.

Quote:Walk into the computer section at a best buy and what do you see, laptops everywhere. The idea that has made them so popular is "why not just get something portable just in case?".

The reality is that laptops/tablets etc are replacing desktops, slowly but surely. Mayhap it won't lead to outright extinction, but things evolve rather rapidly at times so you never know whats around the corner.

Quote:What struck me about this was the fact they 95% of them never took the laptop anywhere, they always left it set up in their dorm room like a desktop (mousepad + mouse, plugged into an outlet)

Indeed most people rarely utilize the added mobility of laptops, and instead use them as outright desktop replacements. The majority of the populace doesn't need the slightly better hardware/flexibility evident in desktops, and as such they aren't losing much by going for a laptop. Much to the chagrin of a fair amount of your brainwashed Uni Macbook users, they find they are at a severe disadvantage in regards to gaming/emulation, encoding, and other intensive programs.

Quote:It's totally illogical to think that your average college student travels a lot or does lots of work on the go yet it seems that everyone thinks this.

True many a time their blindly following societal preconceived notions that they need a laptop if they are going to college. That is absolutely false. If however they make an informed decision between the 2, and their budget allows it, I can't fault them for their choice.

Quote:large high resolution monitor, a full size keyboard, a mouse, and fast hardware (and sometimes multi-monitor)

All these things can be found in high tier (gaming) desktop replacements, although I'll admit its not the norm, and can be draining to resources.

Quote:Everything just goes faster/smoother on a desktop unless it's horribly out of date

Relative to a toshiba satellite i can understand why you would come to that conclusion Eventually you'll use a top tier laptop and see that those characteristics can be found as well.

Quote:I wouldn't, I really wouldn't.

I know you wouldn't Another difference between you and Rezard is that he (eventually) became acceptive of laptops, even as a 5Ghz i5-2500k desktop elitist.

Quote:That's an outrageous amount of money to spend on a laptop.

That includes an upgraded 128 or 256GB ssd. I'll probably fall back on a $1700 3720qm variant, which while expensive is still not abnormal. I won't deny that for half the price a desktop can match its power, and as such it seems foolish to you to spend that amount of money. Note that a fair amount of people spend 3k-5k on ultra-elite "laptops".

Quote:2. Laptop overclocking is a really bad idea, period (do I even need to point out why?).

I hate to disagree with you, but this is probably an issue we will never see eye to eye, even in a couple months when i post pics of reasonable temps after overclocks under furmark... If you'd allow your judgment armor to be cracked a bit you can certainty find tens of thousands of threads on NBR and Overclockers with impressive fully stable laptop overclocks.

Quote:3. You're overestimated how demanding dolphin is. We have a few very demanding games that will run poorly on nearly any hardware and the rest should run fine on any high end laptop

I don't believe I've overestimated how demanding it is. Pcsx2 is alot more forgiving then Dolphin is, with practically every single playable game being able to retain fullspeed(perhaps with a simple hack or 2) with the highest tier SB laptops, and certainly with the introduction of Ivy Bridge. Dolphin(Wii, and even some GC) is in another league entirely. I don't accept that some games cant be played, and as such will make a purchase that guarantees 100% speed on every game that is theoretically able to reach 100%, with extremely high internal resolution/SSA. If that means I'll need a 3920xm overclocked stably to 5.0ghz+ on all 4 cores, in conjuction with an elite non-sli Gpu then i'll find an ultra high tier gaming laptop that fits that build. I don't take kindly to "impossible"

Quote: High end laptops are more prone to overheating and end up being higher maintenance (faster fans and wider ventilation also means dust builds up faster in most of them).

Depends on the model, cooling system, thermal paste, environment, and yes maintenance may be necessary, which is to be expected and is not the end of the world..

Quote:5. High end laptops tend to have very poor battery life, even today.

Batttery life isn't all that important to me, however current high tier gaming laptops such as Msi Gt 683dx can average 3-4 hours on maximum settings according to dozens of posts that I've read on the NBR forums. With the introduction of IB, Kepler w/optimus, those numbers are expected to only go up. Nonetheless those improvements are bonuses, i don't care about battery life much anyways.

Quote:Anyways, you've officially been promoted from lurker to well informed poster, so congratulations and welcome to the forums

Thanks for the promotion, however lurking and staying low key suit me well now relative to my high profile days in the past.

Quote:(I would recommend that you get on IRC if you want to actually learn anything technical though).

Thanks for the recommendation but its been a while since i frequented IRC, and I daresay it won't happen any time soon. Technical growth is mildly tempting, however I doubt I'll go out of my way and expend the necessary effort to reap the rewards. If i hadn't just moved from Broward to Ocala (shudders), and if I was still social, I'm sure we could have been friends, as you seem to be a cool guy.

Oh great, now you've got me going on laptops. This is going to be fun.

Quote: all while lying down or lounging around my house, including a painless hdmi to my 46" Lcd when i feel like it. Being constrained largely to a desk with a Desktop is far from ideal,

I don't see how anyone can consider that the ideal way to use a computer. An office chair at a desk with armrests/wristrests will always be the best way to use a computer for an extended period of time without becoming uncomfortable. Even when I was forced to use a laptop for a year while I had no desktop I still set it up like a desktop because it was the only way to avoid backpain/wristpain from long periods of use.

Quote: and for double the price you can get largely equivalent performance in a laptop.

And that's a huge con for laptops.

Quote:There is a fair amount of difference between mid range laptops/ultraportables and desktop replacement gaming laptops. It's not hard to compare top tier mobile hardware with desktop components, and see for yourself that the differences aren't staggering. For example current mobile gpu king GTX 580m is nearly equivalent to a Gtx 560ti, which is more than enough for 99% of current gaming needs.

I am aware of both of these facts however:
1. They're never going to be anywhere near as powerful as high end desktop hardware without making the design extremely unpractical.
2. The performance per dollar of a desktop is almost usually 2-3x.

Quote:The new lineups of Cpu/Gpu benefit from die shrinks/new architecture by consuming less tdp, which means that laptops will be able to get even closer to desktop performance.

Everytime a die shrink happens and TDP goes down that extra power is usually spent to improve performance with both desktop and laptop chips. Although this might help close the gap between them slightly the difference is small at best. Since they use the same chip architectures everytime laptop hardware gets faster so does desktop hardware.

Quote:While upgrade ability is decidedly limited relative to desktops, there still is some breathing room in regards to mxm graphic card upgrades, and even cpu upgradeability. Ram, hdd/ssd, monitor, keyboard, wifi etc are also usually upgradeable. Sure you are paying a premium, but its not like your receiving a bulldozer for your $.

We still have a long way to go before your average laptop is highly upgradable and easy to upgrade. But I do believe we'll get there within 5 years.

Quote:All these things can be found in high tier (gaming) desktop replacements, although I'll admit its not the norm, and can be draining to resources.

Not a large monitor. I've never even seen a laptop get up to 19", let alone 24" which is the typical size of a desktop monitor these days. And of course it's obvious why, the laptop would have to be enormous to support it, so it's unpractical for a laptop to have one.

Multi-monitor on laptops is a pain in the ass.

And of course the hardware. Hardware is never going to be as powerful in laptops as it is in desktops due to space, power consumption, and TDP limitations. It is true that top of the line laptops (I hate calling them gaming laptops, because to me that feels like a cheap marketing term) have hardware comparable to a medium end desktop, but you have to trade weight, battery life, heat, maintenance, etc. to get there with a laptop. The system essentially becomes highly impractical to use as anything other than a desktop replacement (battery life being so bad that you need to have it plugged in any time you want to use it for more than an hour, weight makes it a pain in the ass to carry around, heat makes it hard to keep in your lap during extended sessions or when you're running heavy software like video games).

Quote:That includes an upgraded 128 or 256GB ssd. I'll probably fall back on a $1700 3720qm variant, which while expensive is still not abnormal. I won't deny that for half the price a desktop can match its power, and as such it seems foolish to you to spend that amount of money. Note that a fair amount of people spend 3k-5k on ultra-elite "laptops".

That's still an insane amount of money. How many people do you know with laptops >$1,300 (other than macbooks of course)?

Quote:I hate to disagree with you, but this is probably an issue we will never see eye to eye, even in a couple months when i post pics of reasonable temps after overclocks under furmark... If you'd allow your judgment armor to be cracked a bit you can certainty find tens of thousands of threads on NBR and Overclockers with impressive fully stable laptop overclocks.

You're talking about a system where power consumption and heat are major concerns. Even if you're successful it's still not a good idea. On top of that although I know that some people have managed to achieve decent overclocks on laptops it's certainly not common nor practical.

Quote:The reality is that laptops/tablets etc are replacing desktops, slowly but surely. Mayhap it won't lead to outright extinction, but things evolve rather rapidly at times so you never know whats around the corner.

Sadly I feel you are right, at least for personal computers, workstations will always be desktops. The average user simply doesn't need the advantages of a desktop as much as someone like me.

Edit: By the way congratulations, I think you've gotten closer than anyone else in beating my record for longest post (which is probably my video card guide, and that things not even halfway done). I see that you're online right now and reading this post so I must point out that I often rapidly edit my posts immediately after making them until I feel it's complete.