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(11-19-2012, 03:44 AM)Xtreme2damax Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2012, 03:26 AM)ExtremeDude2 Wrote: [ -> ]because sniper sucks on mvm XD

:/

A good sniper, fully upgraded can wreck everything including giants. Sniper is also great for targeting uber medics and robo-snipers. Sniper can kill safely from a distance without being in immediate danger.

Thats why i like em

Quote:A good sniper, fully upgraded is both statistically and in practice grossly inferior to pretty much every other class with comparable cash values.

Fixed that for you. If you enter an expert game and go sniper people will leave because there is almost no hope of winning if you have a sniper on your team and veteran players know this.

Don't play sniper on MVM unless you are playing on intermediate difficulty or on advanced with an extremely good team that can carry you. No matter what you do you cannot contribute as much to your team as the other classes. There is a universal team composition used by expert players because after lots of testing you eventually determine that it works the best and it goes something like this:

-scout (always)
-heavy
-heavy (may be substituted for another dps)
-demoman
-engineer
-pyro

This is the standard team composition for expert MVM. Medics, spies, and snipers are less useful than the other classes. Soldier is a poor mans demoman. But out of all the useless hated classes sniper is the most useless and the most hated. If you are playing sniper you are basically half a person as far as stats go. You can still contribute some useful things to the team but you are less useful than your other choices, and that's bad.

Quote: Sniper is also great for targeting uber medics

But worse at it than demoman and spy. Even a pyro with a crit boosted third degree is better at this.

Quote: and robo-snipers.

Can be easily killed by just about anyone and should not be your primary concern. The scout on the team usually has no problems taking out the snipers.

Quote:Sniper can kill safely from a distance without being in immediate danger.

While your team gets overwhelmed by advancing forces that you can't kill fast enough as you continue to fall back. If they do spot you you die REALLY FAST. Not to mention you can only effectively cover one direction at a time.

Quote:Btw I just recorded a video of me playing on Dustbowl as a spy. I didn't do too bad although there were a few derp things I did. Currently converting the video and am going to upload as soon as the conversion is done.

I am getting really good with spy myself. Nothing beats the satisfaction of taking out 4 people on the cart with a chainstab. I love my spycicle, enforcer, invisibility watch, and red tape recorder.

The red tape recorder still feels like a straight upgrade from the stock electrosapper, I feel bad for using it. This is pretty much the only weapon that needs a nerf right now.

I prefer the enforcer because you get more damage per clip and the slower firing speed actually forces me to aim better in a frantic situation.

Quote:What type of players do you guys specialize with?

At this point I'm good with pretty much every class. But in terms of how often I use each class:

Most played:
-soldier
-engineer
-scout

Moderate play:
-heavy
-pyro
-spy

Least played:
-medic
-demoman
-sniper

Quote: i usually use a sniper whenever available.

I'm sure you'll make lots of friends in-game.......

But lets be serious now. Snipers are by far the most hated class by veteran players and most loved class by newbies. I guess because newbies feel safer being away from the action, I honestly can't think of another why it's so popular among bad players.

The number 1 reason why teams fail is they have too many snipers on their team because everyone wants to be sniper. 1 or 2 good snipers is ok. But what you usually end up with is 3 or 4 bad snipers. I don't know why so many of the people who play sniper are bad with it but it's true. Being on a team filled with bad snipers is one of the most frustrating things you can experience in this game because it makes it feel like it's impossible to win, it's extremely annoying. People will hate you for it because it makes it look like you don't want to contribute to the team. I just avoid the class altogether unless there are 0 or 1 snipers on my team and I suggest you do the same.

The number 2 reason why teams fail is they have too many spies on their team because everyone wants to be spy. Everything that I wrote above about snipers applies to spies as well.

What you need to do is look at your team composition and play whatever class people aren't playing or whatever class is the most needed right now. This will make you a valuable member of the team. I never pick a class that already has lots of players playing it unless they are all incompetent fools and my team would benefit from having me play that class (which happens a lot with spies not sapping, pyros not spychecking, medics not popping uber, and engineers not properly building). Always put the team before yourself. If someone isn't doing there job it's up to you to take their place.

It's ok to play sniper once and awhile if:
-you're on a good team that can carry you and they aren't playing competitively, then nobody will really care
-you're a really good sniper. If you're leading the scoreboard as sniper nobody is going to question your decision to play sniper.
-if there is a deficit of snipers on your team and the enemy team has lots of heavies and/or soldiers

But don't make it your go-to class.

This pretty much sums up everyone's feelings on the plague of bad snipers (especially in pub servers):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30L7L35VOw

Well in my defense i was referring to most other FPS games i've played and not TF2 and its sad to see that snipers dont get the respect they truly deserve, i guess the ability to drop any kind of opponent with only one armor piercing bullet is what i like most about snipers.

They also provide great support like you said, having a good sniper on your team can make a big difference, maybe because this is a game and people need to get into the action makes the class seem inferior but if this was real combat a sniper's skill would be invaluable.

The number 1 thing that separates good snipers in this game from bad snipers is awareness. Bad snipers don't look around and don't move. And then they wonder why they got killed by a scout or a spy after they stood perfectly still staring in one direction for three minutes. Good snipers harass enemies with SMGs and jarate and are constantly looking around for spies and moving to better spots.

Also bad snipers guard chokepoints and expect the enemy to come to them. Good snipers move to where the action is and are constantly on the offensive. This game is all about trying to push the enemy team back.

Snipers are annoying in pretty much every fps I have ever played, yet they are so beloved by certain people that they end up in pretty much every fps in some form or another. They're boring to play as and frustrating to play against.

In many games if a sniper is in a good position you have zero chance of killing them no matter what you do unless you go sniper yourself. Being one-shoted by an enemy half a mile away that you can't see is not fun or fair. Meanwhile playing sniper is usually like playing a long slow game of whack-a-mole where you wait for enemies to move into the position that you're watching.

Big open maps end up turning into horrible sniper fests in these games which forces developers to design around them. The result in constrained and therefore worse level design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWwXfyV5Vn8

Enjoy and like if anyone likes the video.

>dustbowl on skial servers
>saharan spy set with dead ringer, your eternal reward, and L'etranger

Why do you play on that shitty server? Every time I play on it with you the teams are horribly one sided to the point where spawn camping is common and the players one one or both sides are absolutely horrible. And there is always a few afk players on one or both sides to make things worse. It is literally the worst server I have ever played on.

You may not want to read my criticism, it's rather harsh:

I'm telling you that set does not work against competent players.

Remind me to give you my favorite server list so you can stop using these shitty uncompetitive servers. Skial and nightteam are the bane of tf2. They exist solely so that the teens that have been banned or kicked from all of the good servers have a place to go during odd hours.

Team stacking is going to happen regardless especially on pub servers unless an active admin kicks team/clan stacking players, in most servers it's not against the rules. Yes I know that Blu was incompetent and one time I did try running away from the Pyro but managed to get caught in the airblast despite the pyro being nearly 10 - 12 feet away. A good spy will be able to backstab the pyro and survive, go watch some of the pro spy videos, revolver use is mostly reserved to getaways, it can be used to kill but I try not to be too dependent on the revolver. I would have killed the pyro once or twice if it weren't for lag and failstabs.

Also the servers I've played with you on are not that much better, marginally better at best. I can make the feigns believable but why lose health making a believable feign when this works just as well?

Another thing regarding team stacking. It is needed, I am tired of the game being noobified to the point where no one bothers to improve. Teams Stacked? Well lets just scramble. Another more skilled player kicking your ass? Well use this easy mode crutch weapon and off them in one or two hits. Team stacking is a necessary evil for improvement, if you are losing then review team composition and tactics to figure out why, learn how to play the game. I was quite terrible last year when I first started playing but I spent time playing and learning game mechanics, in most cases I can do well with the stock loadout. Most teams are stacked because one team has medics and engineers while the other doesn't, same is true for teams that are being spawn camped.

A spy using the Dead Ringer is obvious the moment someone is killed by the same spy that just "died". However that does not keep anyone from continually being killed by a DR spy. A spy using the Saharan set with the Dead ringer can wreck havok even on aware players if you play it just right.

Quote: A good spy will be able to backstab the pyro and survive, go watch some of the pro spy videos,

Only if they remain unseen or the pyro is incompetent. If the pyro is good you cloak, if the pyro is bad you run and shoot. If the pyro is terrible you might be able to backstab if you have an angled surface nearby. You do not run straight at them with the expectation that you will be able to backstab them in time.

Quote:I would have killed the pyro once or twice if it weren't for lag and failstabs.

You got killed because you ran straight at him while he had his flamethrower out. You could have perfect hit registry and it wouldn't make a difference.

Quote:Also the servers I've played with you on are not that much better, marginally better at best.

I find that difficult to believe but even so you play tf2 at some odd hours when most of the good servers are empty. Have you ever played with me on the |LAB| server for example? I'm not sure.

Quote:I can make the feigns believable but why lose health making a believable feign when this works just as well?

Because if you're playing against experienced players it won't work. You weren't playing against experienced players which is why it worked.

Quote:Another thing regarding team stacking. It is needed

.....what? You want one team to have absolutely no chance of winning? That's what's needed to make this game good?

Quote:, I am tired of the game being noobified to the point where no one bothers to improve. Teams Stacked? Well lets just scramble.

I've only ever seen team stacking occur in servers filled with mostly bad players. So clearly your theory is flawed. Good servers balance the teams by either autobalance or kicking people who try to teamstack by moving to the winning team midgame. I don't know about you but I can only feel myself improving substantially in a competitive environment. I need to be challenged. I need to play against players who are as good or better than me.

Quote:Another more skilled player kicking your ass? Well use this easy mode crutch weapon and off them in one or two hits. Team stacking is a necessary evil for improvement, if you are losing then review team composition and tactics to figure out why, learn how to play the game.

If you're losing than invent a magic device that instantly injects hundreds of hours of experience into everyone on your team, that's usually your only chance of winning. I've seen plenty of games where the team had perfect composition and several people were trying to organize a strategy but the players were so bad (inexperienced) that it was impossible to make a significant push. Is that your definition of a fun, fair, and competitive game?

This game is an unplayable mess with team stacking. It makes the difference between one of the greatest fps of all time that I play for hours on end and was happy to pay $30 for and a garbage fps not worth playing for free. I can't see how any sane person would put up with it. I would rather just not play the game than have to deal with teamstacking and so would most veteran players, that's why the good servers tend to get empty pretty quickly if it happens.

Quote:I was quite terrible last year when I first started playing but I spent time playing and learning game mechanics, in most cases I can do well with the stock loadout. Most teams are stacked because one team has medics and engineers while the other doesn't, same is true for teams that are being spawn camped.

And tell me what you, one person, can do to fix that if team stacking is occurring? One or two good players is not enough to win regardless of team composition or tactics if the entire enemy team consists of good players and/or more players.

Teamstacking doesn't mean that one team is winning a lot. It means that one team has more players and/or much better players.

(11-19-2012, 10:02 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote: A good spy will be able to backstab the pyro and survive, go watch some of the pro spy videos,

Only if they remain unseen or the pyro is incompetent. If the pyro is good you cloak, if the pyro is bad you run and shoot. If the pyro is terrible you might be able to backstab if you have an angled surface nearby. You do not run straight at them with the expectation that you will be able to backstab them in time.

Quote:I would have killed the pyro once or twice if it weren't for lag and failstabs.

You got killed because you ran straight at him while he had his flamethrower out. You could have perfect hit registry and it wouldn't make a difference.

Quote:Also the servers I've played with you on are not that much better, marginally better at best.

I find that difficult to believe but even so you play tf2 at some odd hours when most of the good servers are empty. Have you ever played with me on the |LAB| server for example? I'm not sure.

Quote:I can make the feigns believable but why lose health making a believable feign when this works just as well?

Because if you're playing against experienced players it won't work. You weren't playing against experienced players which is why it worked.

Quote:Another thing regarding team stacking. It is needed

.....what? You want one team to have absolutely no chance of winning? That's what's needed to make this game good?

Quote:, I am tired of the game being noobified to the point where no one bothers to improve. Teams Stacked? Well lets just scramble.

I've only ever seen team stacking occur in servers filled with mostly bad players. So clearly your theory is flawed. Good servers balance the teams by either autobalance or kicking people who try to teamstack by moving to the winning team midgame. I don't know about you but I can only feel myself improving substantially in a competitive environment. I need to be challenged. I need to play against players who are as good or better than me.

Quote:Another more skilled player kicking your ass? Well use this easy mode crutch weapon and off them in one or two hits. Team stacking is a necessary evil for improvement, if you are losing then review team composition and tactics to figure out why, learn how to play the game.

If you're losing than invent a magic device that instantly injects hundreds of hours of experience into everyone on your team, that's usually your only chance of winning. I've seen plenty of games where the team had perfect composition and several people were trying to organize a strategy but the players were so bad (inexperienced) that it was impossible to make a significant push. Is that your definition of a fun, fair, and competitive game?

This game is an unplayable mess with team stacking. It makes the difference between one of the greatest fps of all time that I play for hours on end and was happy to pay $30 for and a garbage fps not worth playing for free. I can't see how any sane person would put up with it. I would rather just not play the game than have to deal with teamstacking and so would most veteran players, that's why the good servers tend to get empty pretty quickly if it happens.

Quote:I was quite terrible last year when I first started playing but I spent time playing and learning game mechanics, in most cases I can do well with the stock loadout. Most teams are stacked because one team has medics and engineers while the other doesn't, same is true for teams that are being spawn camped.

And tell me what you, one person, can do to fix that if team stacking is occurring? One or two good players is not enough to win regardless of team composition or tactics if the entire enemy team consists of good players and/or more players.

Teamstacking doesn't mean that one team is winning a lot. It means that one team has more players and/or much better players.

What I am saying is that in any other online game new players have to actually learn how to play. There are no scrambles, there are no insta-kill crutch weapons aside from maybe snipers or a rocket/grenade launcher, there is no feigning death. Why bother learning the game when it caters to new players and allows bad players to do well?

Have you heard of trick stabs and stair stabs? Here is a video to outline these, that's how you backstab pyros but if I rely on the revolver against pyros I won't learn how to do these trickstabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54sGFRNFyIw

Yes it is quite possible to backstab a pyro that has their flamethrower out but you have to be quick else you get killed in two or three seconds flat. I've played with both inexperienced and experienced players and as long as the DR is used correctly it will work, it doesn't matter whether it's obvious or not, feign death and get behind enemy lines, stab preoccupied players that's all there is to it. Just a moment ago I was in a game with some experienced players on the opposing team that were quite aware, I still managed to finish the round second place with 29 points. It was a lot harder than earlier but I managed to do fine. The reason I don't do so well when I play a game with you is because I am not used to the map, last time we played I had just bought a new mouse and wasn't used to it.

Regarding the servers you play on I can't remember off the top of my head why I didn't like them too much more since it's been a while.

Quote:The reason I don't do so well when I play a game with you is because I am not used to the map, last time we played I had just bought a new mouse and wasn't used to it.

I never said you were bad. I said that skial is filled with terrible players and you were playing against some of them.

Quote:What I am saying is that in any other online game new players have to actually learn how to play.

It's the same in every fps. You either get better or you don't. You learn to play or you don't (usually the former). But it takes time.

Quote:There are no scrambles,

I'm sorry what? I can't hear you over the sound of almost every team based multiplayer fps ever made. Almost all of them have autobalance that is similar to TF2s.

Quote:there are no insta-kill crutch weapons aside from maybe snipers or a rocket/grenade launcher,

lolwut?

I have yet to play an fps that doesn't have these.

Quote: there is no feigning death.

I've never seen that mechanic is another fps, I'll give you that.

Quote:Why bother learning the game when it caters to new players and allows bad players to do well?

Because it doesn't? Bad players do bad. Good players do good, it's like this in every fps. In teamplay fps like tf2 even if you are good it will be extremely hard to do good if you're on a bad team but it's still possible.

Are you actually trying to say that completely eliminating team balance is necessary to teach people new skills? Take a step back a minute and think about what you're trying to say and why it doesn't make any sense.

Quote:Have you heard of trick stabs and stair stabs?

Yes. And you can't do it by running straight at them swinging your knife around.

Quote:Here is a video to outline these, that's how you backstab pyros but if I rely on the revolver against pyros I won't learn how to do these trickstabs.

You do realize that in many circumstances trickstabs are an inferior method to deal with pyros right? Trickstabs are only effective in certain situations. A really good player can use every available method of dealing with enemies and knows which one to use in a given situation. You should not have been trying to pull off trickstabs in any of those situations.