I meant their Chief Architect.
Will AMD Carrizo offer a considerable performance increase over Kaveri?
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09-11-2014, 10:02 PM
(09-11-2014, 05:47 PM)tueidj Wrote:(09-11-2014, 03:33 PM)NaturalViolence Wrote: The actual details that matter won't be revealed until weeks before launch (several months away at this point). And even those aren't useful enough to make any accurate performance predictions with. It is impossible to tell how fast a chip is going to be until it is released and you can actually test it yourself. But despite this every year we always get threads with people asking us to tell them how the next Intel/AMD chips are going to perform even when they're months away from release. As if we have some secret prototypes hidden away in our basements to test with. Wait, we've been used on AnAndTech or something. Should we get free stuff? We're even serious enough to have been sent current generation stuff from nVidia for free.
OS: Windows 10 64 bit Professional
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5900X RAM: 48GB GPU: Radeon 7800 XT 09-12-2014, 08:00 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2014, 08:02 AM by NaturalViolence.)
tueidj Wrote:You might be surprised to know that both Intel and AMD do often ship pre-release machines to both commercial and open-source developers (free of charge) in order for them to optimize their software before the chips reach market. It's simply a matter of having the right contacts which normally occurs by either filing bugs or asking for help/information regarding new features, combined with a solid reputation for the project (such as being used as a benchmark on well known-websites...). I'm well aware. But this is limited to a few very select companies generally. The dolphin project doesn't get this service so it's irrelevant to OPs question or anyone else on these forums who asks a similar question about how future chips are going to perform. Besides even if the devs were given early prototype chips they would have to sign an NDA agreeing not to release any performance data until after the official launch. So it still wouldn't matter. DatKid20 Wrote:I meant their Chief Architect. They brought Jim Keller back because of his experience with the ultra mobile platforms. A market that they're desperately trying to break into right now. He's not going to save AMDs desktop IPC.
"Normally if given a choice between doing something and nothing, I’d choose to do nothing. But I would do something if it helps someone else do nothing. I’d work all night if it meant nothing got done."
-Ron Swanson "I shall be a good politician, even if it kills me. Or if it kills anyone else for that matter. " -Mark Antony 09-12-2014, 09:40 AM
If you say so NV. I'm just saying that AMD has learned from past mistakes and will actually bring a platform worthy of speaking about. By 2016 it will no longer matter if you pick AMD or Intel for Dolphin if AMD's platform is half as good as it's hype.
09-12-2014, 10:18 AM
(09-12-2014, 08:00 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: I'm well aware. But this is limited to a few very select companies generally. The dolphin project doesn't get this service so it's irrelevant to OPs question or anyone else on these forums who asks a similar question about how future chips are going to perform. It's not limited to "very few select companies" at all, there are dozens of units shipped to open source projects - I speak from experience having been sent an engineering sample Q6600 in 2006, a clarkdale i5 in 2009 and a very early ivy bridge dev board in 2011, all while working on a particular open source project. Just because none of the Dolphin devs have received one so far doesn't mean there's a good chance it may happen in the future, especially since the project is being used for widespread benchmarking now. While it is true that an NDA would apply preventing explicit performance figures from being released, that was not the context being discussed here (OP's question was about Dolphin's ability to use the new instruction extensions). 09-12-2014, 11:09 AM
Aren't the new instructions already documented though? Would the devs actually need a prototype to tell if the instructions would be useful? I would think not since several of them have already given their opinions on this stuff.
DatKid20 Wrote:If you say so NV. I'm just saying that AMD has learned from past mistakes and will actually bring a platform worthy of speaking about. By 2016 it will no longer matter if you pick AMD or Intel for Dolphin if AMD's platform is half as good as it's hype. Every year they admit the previous uarch was a fuckup. Every year they promise the next one will be great. Then it comes and everyone is disappointed in the performance. I've seen the cycle repeat itself every year since 2006 now (except maybe thuban which was actually decently competitive). I'll believe it when I see it. Don't buy into the marketing or the hype. Just because you admit to past products not meeting expectations doesn't mean you're going to be able to flip the table with future products. In fact if your products are consistently not meeting expectations that only makes it less likely. Catching up to Intel right now in this market would require nothing short of a miracle of biblical proportions. Intel spends more than 10 times as much on AMD on processor R&D and manufacturing. As far as I can tell this is the only reason why AMD is trailing behind. Simply put Intels engineering team is bigger and better. They can also pay top dollar for the best engineers in the business. Since cpu design, manufacturing, and testing are ridiculously labor and skill intensive this gives Intel a major advantage. They have better optimized architectures and manufacturing processes. What AMD really needs is more money to bring their stuff up to par. But since they're already a full generation behind on manufacturing tech. they need to have more revenue than Intel to really have any chance of catching up. They know this isn't going to happen with the desktop/laptop market. But they think that if they break into new markets where Intel is weak they might have a chance. This is what they're trying to do right now. And as they shift their focus (and budget) further and further away from the desktop/laptop market the chances of them ever catching up to Intel there are only going to go down. AMD is continuing to slash budgets and employment for these divisions left and right every year. The only time AMD really flipped the tables on Intel was the P4 era. And as far as I can tell that was only because Intel fucked up big time and made lots of big changes all at once based on foreign research that wasn't solid. They're not going to make that mistake again. If Intel had continued to make small annual refinements to the P6 architecture during that era as they had been doing before and since AMD would have never gained any ground. This is evidenced by the massive jump in performance and efficiency from PD to C2D. That's why I don't see it happening. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me 7 or 8 times and I'm not buying into the hype this time.
"Normally if given a choice between doing something and nothing, I’d choose to do nothing. But I would do something if it helps someone else do nothing. I’d work all night if it meant nothing got done."
-Ron Swanson "I shall be a good politician, even if it kills me. Or if it kills anyone else for that matter. " -Mark Antony 09-12-2014, 11:19 AM
(09-12-2014, 11:09 AM)NaturalViolence Wrote: Aren't the new instructions already documented though? Would the devs actually need a prototype to tell if the instructions would be useful? I would think not since several of them have already given their opinions on this stuff. The systems are provided for actual testing. Optimizing on paper will only get you so far (especially today's systems with multi-cores/threading and L1/L2/L3 caches thrown in the mix), profiling is practically a necessity. 09-14-2014, 05:17 AM
even if such features give no important boost, if it comes in a smaller litography, unlocked and cheaper than intel`s counterparts, the user can offset the lower IPC per core with higher clock speed if he needs to...
09-14-2014, 06:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2014, 06:36 AM by Link_to_the_past.)
(09-14-2014, 05:17 AM)omega_rugal Wrote: even if such features give no important boost, if it comes in a smaller litography, unlocked and cheaper than intel`s counterparts, the user can offset the lower IPC per core with higher clock speed if he needs to... Which is? You do understand that current AMD chips clocked at 5ghz can't even match (never mind beat) a haswell chip at stock clocks in dolphin? Here are some results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...ring#gid=0 A stock i3 4130 at 3,4 ghz is 10 % faster than a FX-8350 clocked at 5ghz. You could say that the new chips will be better but so can be said about intel offerings, they will also have new chips on the market and they will also be better. AMD needs a tremendous leap in single threaded performance just to catch up, an incremental increase of 10% won't do, make it more than 50% and they might be getting somewhere... 09-15-2014, 08:47 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2014, 08:49 AM by NaturalViolence.)
omega_rugal Wrote:if it comes in a smaller litography, It won't. AMDs manufacturing tech. has been 1-1.5 generations behind Intel for years now. Carrizo will be 20nm, broadwell will be 14nm. omega_rugal Wrote:unlocked I have no doubt that it will be. This has been one of the few advantages that AMD has retained. Intels chips are so much better that they know they can get away with charging extra for overclockable CPUs and motherboard chipsets. Although this advantage is slowly evaporating as Intel has begun to introduce low end unlocked CPUs. And it becomes a null point when you consider that comparable AMD chips are so much slower in dolphin that even with overclocking they cannot compete with stock Intel cpus. omega_rugal Wrote:and cheaper than intel`s counterparts, Intel has always had products to match the price of AMD products at every price point. And with dolphin similarly priced Intel cpus always win by a mile. omega_rugal Wrote:the user can offset the lower IPC per core with higher clock speed if he needs to... That's just not the case. I don't think you fully realize just how far behind AMD is in IPC for dolphin right now. If the IPC stayed the same they would need to increase the clock rate to around 8GHz just to match the stock performance of Intels current offerings. I wish I were joking. AMD hit 220w with piledriver just to hit 5GHz. Imagine what TDP would be needed for 8GHz assuming it was even possible to keep the chip stable at that speed.
"Normally if given a choice between doing something and nothing, I’d choose to do nothing. But I would do something if it helps someone else do nothing. I’d work all night if it meant nothing got done."
-Ron Swanson "I shall be a good politician, even if it kills me. Or if it kills anyone else for that matter. " -Mark Antony |
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