Wii Network Dumping Censorship?

[delroth]

Thanks for the advice. I'll go away and let you work on wii-network. You won't hear about me again.

[AnyOldName3]

Seriously, do you (the guy whose name I'm too lazy to scroll down and find out, not Delroth, who is awesome, and so wouldn't receive a complaint) actually think of why something happens before you type stuff complaining about it? If the new users read FAQs and other forum posts, instead of posting the same questions all the time, maybe the developers could actually make the emulator work, rather than making it idiot proof. You say they should 'bother' to answer every question fully, but don't realise how much simpler it would be for everyone if users 'bothered' to look at what the answer was the last time the question was posed. The amount of time that it would take to answer one question properly is more time than it would take every idiot ever to google their question put together. The developers don't make dolphin because they want to provide a service to the ungrateful public who want all their games working at 1080p with antialiasing with Hi Def textures and their favourite cheats after pushing just one button and reading nothing. They don't work on dolphin so that it becomes their responsibility to deal with lazy imbeciles. They work on dolphin either because they want there to be a permanent record of exactly how the Wii/GC worked, or so that all these games will be playable years down the line when people feel nostalgic about great games of the past. The fact that other people get to gain from this work for free is solely because the developers are kind and want others to benefit from their work. You don't buy someone's lunch one day, and expect to have to buy their lunch for the rest of their life and then cut it smaller for them if it turns out to be too chewy to swallow whole. In fact, you may even expect that at some point, they'll buy your lunch in return.

I think this may be my longest post ever. If it doesn't make sense, then it's because I'm not reading it again.

[Parlane]

(04-21-2013, 06:21 AM)Rhys Wrote:

(04-21-2013, 06:02 AM)delroth Wrote:

(04-21-2013, 02:04 AM)Rhys Wrote: You are not the only developers in the world. You're not going to get any real help from outside people interested in developing the wii network branch if you force them to scrounge around in a 512MB size NAND full of thousands of files to find the data required, and then delete threads/posts when anyone posts information as to where the file containing the data is. The only snippet of information I found on it was a quote on a german forum from a post which has been since deleted for whatever reason. It didn't even divulge in the slightest how to extract the certificate, just that they actually existed. That isn't very encouraging.

I've always been quite open about how to get the certs if you knew a little about SSL. I think I once posted publicly about what the files were, where they were (in IOS binaries related to the SSL module) and what format they were encoded in (DER). "People interested in developing the wii network branch" were clearly more interested in developing a tool to automate extraction of the certs.

We did not have a single person come and ask us for help to work on wii-network yet. Now that the procedure to get the SSL certs has been documented on a public place, we still haven't got a single new contribution to the wii-network branch, only Youtube videos of people saying "look, I can play with Dolphin online". What a surprise.

Being public about development in early stages has never really been a good thing in Dolphin for the last 2 years. People don't seem very interested in "giving back" to the development anyway. I'm tired of this: we get the annoying people asking every 5 minutes about stuff and reporting issues we clearly know about, and never anyone interested by the code and contributing. Why bother?

Maybe they're not interested in developing for Dolphin because of this kind of reaction. Your intolerance for new/uninformed users is outstanding and it's visible in every thread, nobody would want to work alongside someone like that if they feel they were to get shot down every time they asked how a certain part of Dolphin worked or other. That's what it seems like from what I see in nearly all of the questions threads, and that's why I'm not interested. You should "bother" trying to be tolerant to attract developers and get a lot more going on in the project.


I posted the video and tool in public since that's where it should be, it should be this easy and since people need to dump their own keys.bin with their own hollywood ID, they are personally responsible for any disruption they cause on WFC and risk getting their own real consoles banned. I wanted to show that it is possible and that it is in fact, really fucking cool that it works so well at this stage. Parlane has done a fantastic job so far.

And it's people like you that make me regret every minute of working on it.

[Rhys]

(04-21-2013, 08:33 AM)AnyOldName3 Wrote: Seriously, do you (the guy whose name I'm too lazy to scroll down and find out, not Delroth, who is awesome, and so wouldn't receive a complaint) actually think of why something happens before you type stuff complaining about it? If the new users read FAQs and other forum posts, instead of posting the same questions all the time, maybe the developers could actually make the emulator work, rather than making it idiot proof. You say they should 'bother' to answer every question fully, but don't realise how much simpler it would be for everyone if users 'bothered' to look at what the answer was the last time the question was posed. The amount of time that it would take to answer one question properly is more time than it would take every idiot ever to google their question put together. The developers don't make dolphin because they want to provide a service to the ungrateful public who want all their games working at 1080p with antialiasing with Hi Def textures and their favourite cheats after pushing just one button and reading nothing. They don't work on dolphin so that it becomes their responsibility to deal with lazy imbeciles. They work on dolphin either because they want there to be a permanent record of exactly how the Wii/GC worked, or so that all these games will be playable years down the line when people feel nostalgic about great games of the past. The fact that other people get to gain from this work for free is solely because the developers are kind and want others to benefit from their work. You don't buy someone's lunch one day, and expect to have to buy their lunch for the rest of their life and then cut it smaller for them if it turns out to be too chewy to swallow whole. In fact, you may even expect that at some point, they'll buy your lunch in return.

I think this may be my longest post ever. If it doesn't make sense, then it's because I'm not reading it again.

Excuse me, but when did I mention any of this? I have a problem with asshole responses and bad attitudes, I don't have any problem with the fact that it's not a service.

If someone asked you a question in your work about how to use x, would you bitch and moan at them that you've been asked the question 500 times and then point at your shirt which is a big list of rules on what questions not to ask because they piss you off too much? Would they ever want to talk to you again after that? Would they help you after that? I certainly wouldn't.

It's about common courtesy, aka being a nice person, not obligating yourself to answer every question as a service. If you have the time to write an asshole response, you have the time to answer the question as you're only "busy" writing that response.

(04-21-2013, 09:48 AM)Parlane Wrote: And it's people like you that make me regret every minute of working on it.

What have I done wrong exactly?

[Parlane]

Just so you are all aware, it was I who asked for these sorts of forum posts to be deleted or shot down.

[KHRZ]

@Rhys

People disrupting Nintendo WFC is not merely their personal problem, it's the problem of everyone getting disrupted. Causing problems gives bad reputation, which no one wants Dolphin to have. When Desmume (DS emulator), went on Nintendo WFC, it was quickly banned. Maybe Dolphin can't be banned so easily, but I assume Nintendo is looking at their options. (Nintendo already dislike emulators, but that doesn't mean emulator developers don't want to be respectful.)

Now while freedom of expression laws allows anyone to make youtube tutorials, "common courtesy" on the other hand, restricts expression that may hurt a project's interests.

[Armada]

In my opinion, though I am just a casual user of Dolphin, having emulators interfere with actual consoles is a line that should never be crossed. You can't expect people to use it responsibly and while it is an amazing achievement it probably would've been wiser not to work on such a feature.

Quote:People don't seem very interested in "giving back" to the development anyway. I'm tired of this: we get the annoying people asking every 5 minutes about stuff and reporting issues we clearly know about, and never anyone interested by the code and contributing. Why bother?

Getting new developers is very difficult no matter on what open source project you work on. I think there are people interested in giving back, but a sophisticated emulator such a Dolphin must seem like an impossible task for new and inexperienced developers to work on.

[Starscream]

Rhys: The very same people who claim that they want to help, may very well be the same people who ruin this for everyone. My suggestion would be to stop pushing and let the developers do what they feel like doing on their own timetable. If you want to contribute, contribute. Get on IRC and talk to the developers and get involved. What you're suggesting isn't contributing. What you're suggesting is to tell more people how to use a feature that's not ready to be used.

[AnyOldName3]

Quote: If someone asked you a question in your work about how to use x, would you bitch and moan at them that you've been asked the question 500 times and then point at your shirt which is a big list of rules on what questions not to ask because they piss you off too much? Would they ever want to talk to you again after that? Would they help you after that? I certainly wouldn't.

"would you bitch and moan at them"


Yes. If someone could google something and get the answer in a few seconds, without bothering me, then it's not only beneficial to me to make them use google, but also to them, as they don't get a chinese whispers version of the answer.
If they started to moan, I may well hit them, but they'd also probably be my brother, and he takes every opportunity to try and hit me.


"Would they ever want to talk to you again after that?"



Hopefully not, they sound annoying. If they genuinely wanted to learn, they'd likely have taken a more sensible route than asking an already asked question.


"Would they help you after that?"


If they can';t figure out google, then they won't be able to figure out anything I can't, except maybe a good reason to chew on wallpaper, as I can't think of a good reason to chew on wallpaper, yet someone, at some point, will have done it.