Wii Backwards Compatibility

[MayImilae]

shoober420 Wrote:Upscaling uses interpolation to add more data. Its not its own special interpolation. That is only your opinion.

I say the sky is blue. Everyone says the sky is blue. Bob calls it "skerruflecus". Everyone keeps telling him that it's crazy to call it that, but noooope, he's convinced. Is he allowed to call it that? Definitely. Every name is just some label someone made up. But when everyone agrees on the same label, it becomes more than just a label, it becomes an established name/term, of which people can easily point to and people instantly understand, and a point of reference to explain new things. "Oh look, those shoes are orange!" Everyone instantly knows what that means. That is how language works, someone makes up a term, uses that to describe another thing as reference, which is used again and again and again, until we have a series of established conventions we call "language". So when there is an established convention and you decide you call it something else, you are undermining the basics of how language works and are creating confusion. Upscaling, interpolation, "increasing resolution", these are all established terms with conventions associated with them, and tons and TONS of proof on those conventions have been posted in this thread. And since they are all technical terms, their labels are based on centuries of labels used to describe highly complex functions. You are fighting against the rules of language. If you want to, that's fine. Just don't be mad at us when we don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Also, I'd like to point out that you, as an admitted non-programmer, are telling an emulator programmer how to use emulator terminology. It's like if I decided to correct a Chinese person's Mandarin because I believe I can pronounce menu items at Chinese restaurants in America.

[Shonumi]

shoober420 Wrote:HLE doesn't produce the same effects as LLE does. Its not as accurate like you said, which was the whole point I have been trying to make. I'm sure there are other games that require LLE audio to sound correct. Metroid Prime being an example.

You're saying HLE audio won't ever produce the same effects as LLE audio? What about the games that I just said have perfect audio under HLE (SA2:B and SSBM, there are countless others btw). You can't simply find examples of where HLE audio doesn't work perfectly (Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness) to say that it never works perfectly or that it's impossible. I've talked to the developers myself, and both delroth and neobrain have said one thing or another to the effect that it would be possible to get perfect audio using HLE in a majority of games. It just takes enough time and effort to fully understand the large-scale behavior of the DSP's microcodes. Please don't say that it's impossible for HLE audio to ever match the quality and accuracy of LLE audio if you can't provide technical details as to why it isn't feasible.

It's inaccurate to say that HLE (not audio specifically, HLE methods) can never produce the same results of LLE because 1) that's an absolute statement; it depends on what you're doing and how. It may be possible given certain situations and impossible (or just extremely difficult) in other situations. 2) I just proved that you can HLE some things (GB BIOS, DAA instruction) with 100% accuracy, so one can't honestly say "never" or "won't ever".

shoober420 Wrote:I've shown a tremendous amount of logic and reasoning to defend my opinion. And in the end, all everyone has stated is there opinions, not facts. Upscaling uses interpolation to add more data. Its not its own special interpolation. That is only your opinion.

You've shown incredible inconsistency in your terminology and an inability to point out specific examples to back up your claims, especially when I asked you (I'm still waiting to show me where N64 emulators utilize HLE for the CPU). Upscaling is a form of interpolation. It's a fact. Look it up. Just google "upscaling interpolation". Even Toshiba says that upscaling is interpolation, and they're ones implementing upscaling in their products. It's simply not an opinion.

shoober420 Wrote:Exactly. If you use shortcuts that HLE does instead of LLE, you will get bugs like missing shadows from the plane in Air Strike Patrol. You can't emulate the shadow from Air Strike Patrol with HLE, which is why byuu used LLE in the first place.

But it's not a given that the cause of the problem for Air Strike Patrol is HLE. It could simply be that they are using LLE, however, their implementation isn't accurate enough. Again, making mistakes in programming or not knowing the full behavior of a feature you're trying to emulate doesn't mean you're taking shortcuts, it just means you don't have a complete idea of what you should do. That says nothing about how an emulator approaches emulation. byuu most likely made a number of trial and error mistakes and bugs (that were eventually corrected) when he began work on bsnes; that doesn't mean early versions of bsnes used HLE.

shoober420 Wrote:I'm not a programmer, so I can't provide code, but Project64, 1964, Mupen64Plus, and just about every other N64 emulator use HLE on the CPU.

Again, any one can say anything on the internet. If you can't back up anything you say with a source or demonstrate why what you said could be true, then you really don't have much of a point.

shoober420 Wrote:There also is any pure LLE emulator capable of increasing internal resolution either.

I still find "LLE emulator" to be very vague (and very redundant) as it stands for "Low Level Emulation Emulator." I'd just say something along the lines like "cycle-accurate" or "completely low level" or whatever. I think I'll call the DS emulator HD-DS or something like that (Hi-Def DS).

[shoober420]

(07-08-2013, 01:16 PM)MaJoR Wrote: I say the sky is blue. Everyone says the sky is blue. Bob calls it "skerruflecus".

The thing is, the sky isn't really blue, its black. The sky uses the sun to make it blue, just as upscaling uses interpolation to upscale the image.

(07-08-2013, 01:16 PM)MaJoR Wrote: Also, I'd like to point out that you, as an admitted non-programmer, are telling an emulator programmer how to use emulator terminology. It's like if I decided to correct a Chinese person's Mandarin because I believe I can pronounce menu items at Chinese restaurants in America.

That's a really dumb analogy. That's like saying, since you're not a football player, you don't know anything about football and how the game works.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: You're saying HLE audio won't ever produce the same effects as LLE audio? What about the games that I just said have perfect audio under HLE (SA2:B and SSBM, there are countless others btw). You can't simply find examples of where HLE audio doesn't work perfectly (Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness) to say that it never works perfectly or that it's impossible. I've talked to the developers myself, and both delroth and neobrain have said one thing or another to the effect that it would be possible to get perfect audio using HLE in a majority of games. It just takes enough time and effort to fully understand the large-scale behavior of the DSP's microcodes. Please don't say that it's impossible for HLE audio to ever match the quality and accuracy of LLE audio if you can't provide technical details as to why it isn't feasible.

I already provided detaisl as to why HLE audio is inferior to LLE audio. There are more audio glitches when using HLE then LLE. Keep this in mind, this is only emulation. Emulation will NEVER be perfect.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: It's inaccurate to say that HLE (not audio specifically, HLE methods) can never produce the same results of LLE because 1) that's an absolute statement; it depends on what you're doing and how. It may be possible given certain situations and impossible (or just extremely difficult) in other situations. 2) I just proved that you can HLE some things (GB BIOS, DAA instruction) with 100% accuracy, so one can't honestly say "never" or "won't ever".

Only the "simple" things can be emulated that accurate. On top of that, I bet LLE would still be more accurate at emulating the "simple" things anyway. In emulation, it can't be "100%" perfect. That's a extremely bold statement. LLE will ALWAYS emulate more accurately then HLE. ALWAYS.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: You've shown incredible inconsistency in your terminology and an inability to point out specific examples to back up your claims, especially when I asked you (I'm still waiting to show me where N64 emulators utilize HLE for the CPU). Upscaling is a form of interpolation. It's a fact. Look it up. Just google "upscaling interpolation". Even Toshiba says that upscaling is interpolation, and they're ones implementing upscaling in their products. It's simply not an opinion.

I used the upscaling terminology wrong in the beginning of the thread. That's it. Nothing else. If upscaling is interpolation, that means anytime I use interpolation, it upscales, regardless of what it is. This is completely wrong. You can use interpolation without upscaling, because upscaling isn't interpolation. That link is being run through a translator, its not valid. Find a better source please. That could be translated completely wrong.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: But it's not a given that the cause of the problem for Air Strike Patrol is HLE. It could simply be that they are using LLE, however, their implementation isn't accurate enough. Again, making mistakes in programming or not knowing the full behavior of a feature you're trying to emulate doesn't mean you're taking shortcuts, it just means you don't have a complete idea of what you should do. That says nothing about how an emulator approaches emulation. byuu most likely made a number of trial and error mistakes and bugs (that were eventually corrected) when he began work on bsnes; that doesn't mean early versions of bsnes used HLE.

HLE was the problem. All emulators prior used HLE for CPU. Its hard to say that all SNES emulators were coded with bugs that just couldn't emulate the shadow. That means every single SNES emulator prior to bsnes/higan had bugs that couldn't emulate the shadow. That's ridiculous. The issue wasn't bugs, the issue was ACCURACY, and HLE just isn't accurate enough to emulate certain games. If that isn't true, then byuu would of used HLE instead. But why did he use LLE? Because he wants ACCURACY.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: Again, any one can say anything on the internet. If you can't back up anything you say with a source or demonstrate why what you said could be true, then you really don't have much of a point.

For sure, Project64, 1964, and Mupen64Plus use HLE on the CPU. If you're so technically savvy, then you can provide information on how these emulation use LLE for CPU instead of HLE.

(07-08-2013, 01:24 PM)Shonumi Wrote: I still find "LLE emulator" to be very vague (and very redundant) as it stands for "Low Level Emulation Emulator." I'd just say something along the lines like "cycle-accurate" or "completely low level" or whatever. I think I'll call the DS emulator HD-DS or something like that (Hi-Def DS).

Instead of worrying about the name, maybe you should get to coding it so you can actually be the first guy to have a pure LLE emulator that can increase internal resolution.

[Shonumi]

shoober420 Wrote:I already provided detaisl as to why HLE audio is inferior to LLE audio. There are more audio glitches when using HLE then LLE. Keep this in mind, this is only emulation. Emulation will NEVER be perfect.

You provided details as to why HLE audio is inferior to LLE audio in some games and that there are more audio glitches with HLE audio than LLE audio in some games. That says nothing about whether or not HLE audio is technically capable of ever matching LLE audio. A lot of people thought HLE audio would never be perfect, especially for problematic games like Xenoblade Chronicles, but delroth has shown that we can still reverse-engineer the DSP's microcode's even further for higher accuracy. There's still room for improvement, but that doesn't mean it's technically impossible to better HLE audio.

shoober420 Wrote:Only the "simple" things can be emulated that accurate. On top of that, I bet LLE would still be more accurate at emulating the "simple" things anyway.

Only simple things? Again, you're saying things without backing up your claims with evidence. What technical barriers prevent "complex" things from being emulated accurately? Can you give or point out specific examples? How is your claim true always in every circumstance and situation? I've already shown that the DSP can be emulated quite accurately via HLE. Dolphin's implementation isn't 100% always, but the emulator is a constant WIP, more or less.

shoober420 Wrote:In emulation, it can't be "100%" perfect. That's a extremely bold statement. LLE will ALWAYS emulate more accurately then HLE. ALWAYS.

It's an extremely bold statement that is actually correct in some circumstances, again, like the GB BIOS and the DAA instruction. The GB BIOS have been studied for more than a decade; we know what it does on every level, and we can emulate that exactly via HLE. Between HLE and LLE in regards to the GB BIOS, there's no distinction if properly coded. I've observed this myself, first-hand, in an emulator I coded myself. I can emulate the BIOS by either method (HLE or LLE) and all output, down to the CPU registers, CPU timing, LCD timing, matches 1:1. You can't say LLE will always be more accurate than HLE because there are cases like this where they will emulate on equal levels.

Additionally, the DAA instruction has a limited number of possible results. Those don't change. If you pre-calculate a table of all possible results, you will get 1:1 behavior the same as if you used LLE to emulate the actual calculation.

shoober420 Wrote:I used the upscaling terminology wrong in the beginning of the thread. That's it. Nothing else. If upscaling is interpolation, that means anytime I use interpolation, it upscales, regardless of what it is. This is completely wrong. You can use interpolation without upscaling, because upscaling isn't interpolation.

This... is bad logic. We've been telling you for days that many things are interpolation because interpolation is a broad category. Simply because one thing is interpolation (upscaling) does not mean that other forms of interpolation (bilinear/trilinear filtering) are by default upscaling. That does not follow a logical sequence, and none of us has ever insisted that to be true. You're claiming that's what we're saying, but it would be best to disabuse yourself of that idea.

shoober420 Wrote:HLE was the problem. All emulators prior used HLE for CPU.

Prove it. An example, some code, something a developer or someone knowledgeable said. You're saying this without evidence. It's not very convincing of anything.

shoober420 Wrote:Its hard to say that all SNES emulators were coded with bugs that just couldn't emulate the shadow. That means every single SNES emulator prior to bsnes/higan had bugs that couldn't emulate the shadow. That's ridiculous. The issue wasn't bugs, the issue was ACCURACY, and HLE just isn't accurate enough to emulate certain games. If that isn't true, then byuu would of used HLE instead. But why did he use LLE? Because he wants ACCURACY.

How is it ridicoulous that all other emulators had bugs but bsnes/higan didn't? FYI, it happens a lot more than you imagine, especially when the emulated feature is obscure and not very well documented. The problem that affected Air Strike Patrol only affected 1 other game; it's an exceedingly rare use of the SNES hardware. Other SNES emulators could have emulated the hardware as best as they could via LLE, but if they didn't know about two little fringes cases (or why they were fringe cases in the first place), it's something they'll miss, and it will be a bug. Other SNES emulators didn't reverse engineer nearly as much as byuu, but that doesn't mean their use of HLE was responsible for the inaccuracy in Air Strike Patrol. You still have no evidence to say that HLE was the cause of the inaccuracy of Air Strike Patrol. Again, some code or something a developer said would suffice.

shoober420 Wrote:Instead of worrying about the name, maybe you should get to coding it so you can actually be the first guy to have a pure LLE emulator that can increase internal resolution.

I intend to spend all the time in the world worrying about the name, because that project is a long ways off from now. As I mentioned, I'm still working on my GB emulator (Game Boy Enhanced, GBE for short). I'm going to go as far as I can with GB/GBC emulation (game compatibility, serial transfer emulation, IR emulation, all or most MBC emulation, scaling algorithms, and custom sprites/backgrounds). After that, I'm going to work on a GBA emulator, and then a DS emulator. I've got a lot to do before I can attempt my hand at the DS. I just finished reworking LCD emulation on GBE, and I'm working on 8x16 sprite mode (finally).

[shoober420]

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: That says nothing about whether or not HLE audio is technically capable of ever matching LLE audio.

Actually, it does indeed prove that HLE will never be as technically capable, and as accurate as LLE.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: Only simple things? Again, you're saying things without backing up your claims with evidence. What technical barriers prevent "complex" things from being emulated accurately? Can you give or point out specific examples? How is your claim true always in every circumstance and situation? I've already shown that the DSP can be emulated quite accurately via HLE. Dolphin's implementation isn't 100% always, but the emulator is a constant WIP, more or less.

I already gave you an example. Air Strike Patrol.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: It's an extremely bold statement that is actually correct in some circumstances, again, like the GB BIOS and the DAA instruction. The GB BIOS have been studied for more than a decade; we know what it does on every level, and we can emulate that exactly via HLE. Between HLE and LLE in regards to the GB BIOS, there's no distinction if properly coded. I've observed this myself, first-hand, in an emulator I coded myself. I can emulate the BIOS by either method (HLE or LLE) and all output, down to the CPU registers, CPU timing, LCD timing, matches 1:1. You can't say LLE will always be more accurate than HLE because there are cases like this where they will emulate on equal levels.

Okay, now emulate the CPU and GPU with 100% accuracy using HLE instead of the "simple" things like BIOS and you might actually be able to prove your point. And bro, emulation is NEVER 100% accurate no matter what.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: This... is bad logic. We've been telling you for days that many things are interpolation because interpolation is a broad category. Simply because one thing is interpolation (upscaling) does not mean that other forms of interpolation (bilinear/trilinear filtering) are by default upscaling. That does not follow a logical sequence, and none of us has ever insisted that to be true. You're claiming that's what we're saying, but it would be best to disabuse yourself of that idea.

No its not. When you say upscaling is interpolation, that is exactly what you're saying. Don't deny it.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: Prove it. An example, some code, something a developer or someone knowledgeable said. You're saying this without evidence. It's not very convincing of anything.

All the older SNES emulators used HLE for the CPU, which is why there was no shadow in Air Strike Patrol.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: You still have no evidence to say that HLE was the cause of the inaccuracy of Air Strike Patrol. Again, some code or something a developer said would suffice.

And you have no evidence that HLE can render Air Strike Patrol correctly. How ironic.

(07-09-2013, 04:47 AM)Shonumi Wrote: I intend to spend all the time in the world worrying about the name, because that project is a long ways off from now. As I mentioned, I'm still working on my GB emulator (Game Boy Enhanced, GBE for short). I'm going to go as far as I can with GB/GBC emulation (game compatibility, serial transfer emulation, IR emulation, all or most MBC emulation, scaling algorithms, and custom sprites/backgrounds). After that, I'm going to work on a GBA emulator, and then a DS emulator. I've got a lot to do before I can attempt my hand at the DS. I just finished reworking LCD emulation on GBE, and I'm working on 8x16 sprite mode (finally).

How about calling it BS-DS. Because its BS that you can increase internal resolution with a true LLE emulator.

[AnyOldName3]

Another example for Shoober, because I am hungry:

Is steak pie pie? Steak pie uses steak and pastry to be a pie.

Is apple pie pie? Apple pie uses apple and pastry to be a pie.

Does steak pie contain apple?

Is blackcurrant pie delicious? Obviously yes. There's no argument.

I've got distracted, and forgotten how to formulate this argument. Still, Apple Pie can be pie without all pie being apple pie.

[shoober420]

(07-09-2013, 07:44 AM)AnyOldName3 Wrote: Still, Apple Pie can be pie without all pie being apple pie.

But the pie uses apples to make it apple pie, just as upscaling uses interpolation to upscale.

[AnyOldName3]

Is apple pie pie?

Yes or no?

Also, is the apple pie a kind of apple in this context? If not, then your argument that my argument is invalid is invalid.

[MayImilae]

shoober420 Wrote:The thing is, the sky isn't really blue, its black. The sky uses the sun to make it blue, just as upscaling uses interpolation to upscale the image.

Go outside on a clear day and look up. There's a color up there. People call it blue. Our ability to see is determined by the light that hits our eyeballs. Light is scattered when it passes through the atmosphere, makes blue, then hits our eyeballs. We call this "sky". Deal with it.

shoober420 Wrote:That's a really dumb analogy. That's like saying, since you're not a football player, you don't know anything about football and how the game works.

*facepalm* You always miss the point. And respond without addressing the point. The point was that you, as an outsider who knows nothing about emulator programming, are telling an emulator programmer about emulation terminology. To continue with your football analogy, it's as if someone who's never seen a game in his life were correcting a football coach's terminology. The coach would immediately cuss him out and beat him up. Just be glad Shonumi has more patience than that.


Anyway, to play on your apparent love of football, I'm going back to the sidelines. I'm in awe at the incredible patience Shonumi has shown here. If I was in his position, you'd have been banned on page 4.

[RachelB]

(07-09-2013, 07:36 AM)shoober420 Wrote: All the older SNES emulators used HLE for the CPU, which is why there was no shadow in Air Strike Patrol.

This is HLE?