Wii Backwards Compatibility

[pauldacheez]

Edit: ninja'd. (lolnotreallyeditedbutwhatever)

For fuck's sake, shoober, you're the one not getting it.

-Unless an emulator is *exclusively* HLE or LLE, you really can't call it an "HLE emulator" or "LLE emulator". There are tons of 2D console emulators and pretty much every fucking one of them LLEs the graphics portions, anyway, so your original point there is invalid.
-Mupen64Plus has both HLE and LLE graphics plugins available. So does every other N64 emulator that supports that stupid-ass plugin architecture they have. So I guess every N64 emulator is technically both HLE and LLE, by your flawed definition.
-"Upscaling the internal resolution" is still an entirely flawed phrase. The second image isn't upscaled, it's rendered at the output resolution. The first image is upscaled to the output resolution.
-Upscaling is the act of taking an image and doing stuff to it to try to get it to look better when displayed at a higher resolution than its original resolution. Don't use it to refer to anything else, that just makes you look dumb.
-Interpolation has plenty to do with upscaling as it's usually what's done to upscale an image.
-Texture filtering doesn't filter the whole screen, nor does it do any interpolation; it does stuff with individual textures to make them not look like shit at extreme viewing angles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisotropic_filtering

You've been fucking up your terminology the whole goddamn time and you're seriously wondering why *you're* being corrected? You make me führious.

[shoober420]

(07-02-2013, 03:01 PM)Shonumi Wrote: Again, you keep saying "HLE emulator" and "LLE emulator". Please define or narrow it down to what you mean.

For an emulator to be called a LLE emulator, it must have no HLE emulation involved. Since most, if not all LLE emulators include some form of HLE emulation, then there are truly more HLE emulators then LLE ones. Mupen64Plus's core is HLE. If it was LLE, it wouldn't allow you to upscale the resolution. Since Mupen64Plus isn't a true LLE emulator (unlike Xebra which is), then its not an LLE emulator that allows increasing the internal resolution. Its a HLE emulator. True LLE emulators will not allow you to increase the internal resolution, unless some form of HLE is involved.

(07-02-2013, 03:01 PM)Shonumi Wrote: That's exactly what the one on the left is doing. "Increasing the internal resolution"

No its not. The picture on the left is just upscaling the resolution, not the INTERNAL resolution. If you upscaled the internal resolution, it would look like the picture on the right.

(07-02-2013, 03:01 PM)Shonumi Wrote: Upscaling has everything to do with interpolation because it is interpolation. Interpolation is a method of constructing new data points within the range of a discrete set of known data points.

You can apply interpolation without upscaling the image. For example, in Quake 2, if I want to smooth out the textures on the walls, I can use Trilinear or Anisotropic filtering. When I apply these texture settings, it does add new data to the texture, but it doesn't upscale it. It just smooths it out. No upscaling was involved. The texture resolution is kept in its original resolution, just smoothed out with the new data.

pauldacheez Wrote:-Texture filtering doesn't filter the whole screen, nor does it do any interpolation; it does stuff with individual textures to make them not look like shit at extreme viewing angles.

Texture filtering does indeed use forms of interpolation. One being Bilinear. You can also use Trilinear. Both are forms of interpolation.

Wikipedia Wrote:Trilinear filtering is an extension of the bilinear texture filtering method, which also performs linear interpolation between mipmaps.

[Shonumi]

shoober420 Wrote:If it was LLE, it wouldn't allow you to upscale the resolution.

You can upscale the output resolution image in LLE emulators like Xebra and higan though (going to fullscreen stretches the image) and you can use scaling filters (which are methods of upscaling).

shoober420 Wrote:True LLE emulators will not allow you to increase the internal resolution, unless some form of HLE is involved.

I don't know where you're getting that idea. What is so specific about Low Level Emulation that prevents you from increasing the internal resolution? Once you emulate the GPU via LLE and have it generate the data for a scene in a given frame, all you have to do is scale the data (vertices, normals, etc). Then you can use a software rasterizer or an API like OpenGL or Direct3D to give you the final pixels in the image. Scaling the data isn't high or low level emulation; it's an enhancement. Again, it's on the same level as scaling filters in the fact that they work on the data after it's been generated by the emulator via HLE or LLE.

I think you're under the that impression because most LLE emulators stick to using software rasterizers; with software rasterizers, the results can be pixel-perfect (sometimes not the case due to limitations with OpenGL or Direct3D), but it would still be entirely possible for the emulator to rasterize a higher internal resolution, since you're essentially working with the same 3D data. The problem is that it's not always easy to implement, so many involved with the projects (the programmer for PSX emulation on Mednafen specifically cited difficulties in using OpenGL or reworking the software rasterizer for higher internal resolutions) just stick to scaling filters.

Additionally, your definition of a "true" LLE emulator is so pinpointed, the only "true" LLE emulators for systems where increasing internal resolution is applicable would be higan (for the DS), MESS (N64), and Xebra (PSX) and possibly Mednafen (PSX). The rest of the "true" LLE emulators I can think of are all for older, 2D consoles like the GB, NES, SNES, etc, where internal resolution is fixed and can't be forced to change. I'm not saying your definition is invalid, but when there are really so few included in the definition, of course it's easy to claim that these emulators are outnumbered.

shoober420 Wrote:No its not. The picture on the left is just upscaling the resolution, not the INTERNAL resolution. If you upscaled the internal resolution, it would look like the picture on the right.

Thanks for misquoting me :3 This is what I said:

Shonumi Wrote:The picture on the left was demonstrating what your incorrect terminology was referring to (upscaling the internal resolution) the one of the right demonstrates the correct usage (increasing the internal resolution). I already pointed out the upscaling involves using algorithms to estimate the missing pixel values of a larger image. "Upscaling the internal resolution" would mean taking an image of an arbitrary internal resolution (1x for example), and using an algorithm to scale it to a larger size. That's exactly what the one on the left is doing.

I'm saying that "upscaling the internal resolution" is your incorrect terminology. If it were correct, I was showing you that "upscaling the internal resolution" would literally mean taking an image of the internal resolution (again, 1x for example) and then upscaling it to a larger image via an algorithm. If you "upscaled the internal resolution", you get the result on the left. The right is increasing the internal resolution, which is the correct terminology, and results in the image on the right. Upscaling always uses algorithms on the individual pixels to give you a larger image. Increasing the internal resolution does not. It's a pretty clear distinction.

shoober420 Wrote:You can apply interpolation without upscaling the image. For example, in Quake 2, if I want to smooth out the textures on the walls, I can use Trilinear or Anisotropic filtering. When I apply these texture settings, it does add new data to the texture, but it doesn't upscale it. It just smooths it out. No upscaling was involved. The texture resolution is kept in its original resolution, just smoothed out with the new data.

Upscaling is interpolation (more accurately, it is a specific type of interpolation), but that in no way narrows the definition of interpolation to mean upscaling and only upscaling. Interpolation is a broad mathematical behavior. My statements have not contradicted that.

shoober420 Wrote:Texture filtering does indeed use forms of interpolation. One being Bilinear. You can also use Trilinear. Both are forms of interpolation.

Nearest neighbor, Bi and Trilinear filtering definitely use interpolation. I'm not familiar with anisotropic filtering, which is what I assume pauldacheez was referring to specifically, so I can't say if all forms of texture filtering use interpolation.

[shoober420]

(07-04-2013, 04:51 AM)Shonumi Wrote: You can upscale the output resolution image in LLE emulators like Xebra and higan though (going to fullscreen stretches the image) and you can use scaling filters (which are methods of upscaling).

I meant to say that a true LLE emulator would not allow you to increase the internal resolution. My bad.

The only way you can increase the internal resolution with an LLE emulator, is with some form of HLE. LLE emulation accurately emulates the hardware, down to the output resolution. If you can increase the output resolution and increase the internal resolution, some form of HLE is involved. Therefore, there are most definitely more HLE emulators then LLE.

The image on the right is upscaling the resolution, not the internal resolution. If you upscaled the internal resolution, it will for sure look like the image on the right.

Shonumi Wrote:Upscaling is interpolation (more accurately, it is a specific type of interpolation), but that in no way narrows the definition of interpolation to mean upscaling and only upscaling. Interpolation is a broad mathematical behavior. My statements have not contradicted that.

Dude, upscaling is not interpolation. You can apply interpolation without any form of upscaling. You really are contradicting yourself if you say upscaling is interpolation when it isn't at all. Interpolation is almost always used on an upscaled image, but that doesn't mean that the interpolation upscaled the image.

Shonumi Wrote:Nearest neighbor, Bi and Trilinear filtering definitely use interpolation. I'm not familiar with anisotropic filtering, which is what I assume pauldacheez was referring to specifically, so I can't say if all forms of texture filtering use interpolation.

No he wasn't. He was clearly said "Texture filtering" uses no interpolation, which is very wrong.

[pauldacheez]

Again, anisotropic filtering doesn't do any interpolation, it's a clever use of mipmapping (which is, ironically, the exact opposite of upscaling – it's resizing images to a resolution *smaller* than their native resolution) to make textures look better at extreme angles.

And please, nobody ever use the phrase "upscaling the internal resolution" again. It's too fucking ambiguous to actually mean anything. The left image was an upscale of the *native* resolution, the right image was an increase of the internal resolution, which is the resolution the 3D shit was actually rendered at.

Upscaling is a use of interpolation to smooth out a low-res image for display at a higher resolution. You're only complaining about it because a shitty method of upscaling is used in 90% of cases.

And yet again on the LLE/HLE thing! Y'gotta realize that there aren't just two levels, high and low, there are actually a LOT of levels you can emulate a computer at. Do we call bsnes a high-level emulator because it's not emulating every individual atom in the SNES's chips? No. We don't even call it a low-level emulator, we specify WHICH goddamn level and we call it "cycle-accurate" because it emulates at the granularity of processor cycles instead of at the usual granularity of instructions (which can take multiple cycles). (This isn't a perfect description of how bsnes works, but it's close enough.) There's another emulator, DICE, that emulates the original Pong arcade box (among others) at an even lower level, at the level of, uh... transistor propagation charges? I'm not an integrated circuit designer, I can't describe it properly. http://adamulation.blogspot.com/

tl;dr of ^that paragraph^, don't just use the terms HLE or LLE haphazardly, specify how H or L the L you're E'ing at is. (And don't expect a tl;dr to fully explain something.)

One last thing – Shonumi's written a Game Boy emulator. He knows what he's talking about, so listen to 'im.

Also, make sure you read and *comprehend* everything everyone's saying. You can't talk about emulation in fuzzy terms with fuzzy knowledge.

[Shonumi]

shoober420 Wrote:The only way you can increase the internal resolution with an LLE emulator, is with some form of HLE. LLE emulation accurately emulates the hardware, down to the output resolution. If you can increase the output resolution and increase the internal resolution, some form of HLE is involved. Therefore, there are most definitely more HLE emulators then LLE.

That's a very poor definition with regards to the output. Again, by that definition of an LLE emulator, you wouldn't be able to use scaling filters at all (no fullscreen, no HQ2X, just straight up native resolution) because all of those alters the output seen by the user. Scaling the internal resolution is neither HLE nor LLE nor emulation at all if the original hardware isn't capable of doing it, thus it's an enhancement. Moreover, it's possible for an LLE emulator to increase the internal resolution if it chose to (again, doesn't happen often/at all for the reasons stated in my previous post).

But I agree with pauldacheez, depending on level and perspective, LLE emulator isn't a very accurate term. Emulation through software is high-level with regards to lower-level emulation forms (hardware emulation and atomic emulation, can't imagine what that would even look like).

shoober420 Wrote:Dude, upscaling is not interpolation. You can apply interpolation without any form of upscaling. You really are contradicting yourself if you say upscaling is interpolation when it isn't at all. Interpolation is almost always used on an upscaled image, but that doesn't mean that the interpolation upscaled the image.

If you don't use interpolation, how do you increase the image size? If you don't generate new pixel data based on current pixel data, how can you get a larger image? You can apply interpolation on an image without increasing its size, but when you do increase the image size - when you upscale - you are using interpolation. Again, interpolation is a broad mathematical idea. Upscaling is interpolation in that it is a specific instance and use of interpolation, as is downscaling, as is texture filtering through nearest neighbor, bilinear and trilinear methods. I haven't contradicted anything; perhaps you're just not following?

Again, interpolation is the process of creating new data from a set of existing data. Upscaling does that. I've already posted that definition twice, so I don't imagine I can be any more concise.

shoober420 Wrote:No he wasn't. He was clearly saying Trilinear uses no interpolation.

Then why did he link to the wikipedia page for Anisotropic filtering?

[shoober420]

(07-04-2013, 05:44 AM)pauldacheez Wrote: Again, anisotropic filtering doesn't do any interpolation, it's a clever use of mipmapping (which is, ironically, the exact opposite of upscaling – it's resizing images to a resolution *smaller* than their native resolution) to make textures look better at extreme angles.

You said "Texture filtering", which is too broad to specifically mean anisotropic filtering.

(07-02-2013, 03:59 PM)pauldacheez Wrote: -Texture filtering doesn't filter the whole screen, nor does it do any interpolation

[pauldacheez]

Yeah, honest mistake there, I meant anisotropic filtering at first. But one of those points still applies: texture filtering doesn't filter the whole screen, it only does filtering (upscaling/interpolation/magic) on individual textures before they're pasted onto polygons.

[shoober420]

(07-04-2013, 06:00 AM)Shonumi Wrote: That's a very poor definition with regards to the output. Again, by that definition of an LLE emulator, you wouldn't be able to use scaling filters at all (no fullscreen, no HQ2X, just straight up native resolution) because all of those alters the output seen by the user. Scaling the internal resolution is neither HLE nor LLE nor emulation at all if the original hardware isn't capable of doing it, thus it's an enhancement. Moreover, it's possible for an LLE emulator to increase the internal resolution if it chose to (again, doesn't happen often/at all for the reasons stated in my previous post).

You can still upscale the original output resolution (like Xebra does), but true LLE emulators do not allow you to increase internal resolution without some form of HLE. Meaning, there are way more HLE emulators then LLE ones.

Shonumi Wrote:If you don't use interpolation, how do you increase the image size?

You have to use interpolation to increase the image size. But, interpolation can be used without increasing the image size.

Shonumi Wrote:If you don't generate new pixel data based on current pixel data, how can you get a larger image? You can apply interpolation on an image without increasing its size, but when you do increase the image size - when you upscale - you are using interpolation.

Yeah dude, but you were saying before that upscaling is interpolation, which is wrong. Upscaling uses interpolation but that doesn't mean that it IS interpolation. That's like saying a car uses gasoline, so the car is now gasoline. You can use interpolation without the need to upscale. Therefore, upscaling is not interpolation. Upscaling is upscaling, and interpolation is interpolation.

(07-04-2013, 06:07 AM)pauldacheez Wrote: But one of those points still applies: texture filtering doesn't filter the whole screen, it only does filtering (upscaling/interpolation/magic) on individual textures before they're pasted onto polygons.

I never said that texturing filtering filters the whole screen, so I don't know why you are bringing that up.

[Shonumi]

shoober420 Wrote:You can still upscale the original output resolution (like Xebra does), but true LLE emulators do not allow you to increase internal resolution without some form of HLE. Meaning, there are way more HLE emulators then LLE ones.

Again, increasing (or for that matter any alteration of) the internal resolution is an enhancement. Again, it's not emulation unless the actual console does it (e.g. the N64 had at least 2 distinct internal resolutions iirc). There's nothing aside from effort and complexity that stops a "true" LLE emulator from being able to increase the internal resolution for applicable systems

shoober420 Wrote:You have to use interpolation to increase the image size. But, you don't need to increase the image size to use interpolation. Interpolation can be used without upscaling the texture.

And I never said you couldn't use interpolation without upscaling. If you think I did so, please quote me specifically.

shoober420 Wrote:Yeah dude, but you were saying before that you can't use interpolation without upscaling, which is wrong. You can use interpolation without the need to upscale. Therefore, upscaling is not interpolation. Upscaling is upscaling, and interpolation is interpolation.

Again, where did I say you couldn't use interpolation without upscaling? Please quote me on that. Interpolation covers a broad range of image manipulation; upscaling is one of them. Upscaling is interpolation (generating new data from exists data points), but I never said upscaling was interpolation and nothing but upscaling. The way you use these terms, it does make me wonder if you actually know what they mean.