Warnings

[MayImilae]

*sigh* You certainly know how to hold a grudge. I would prefer to let Shonumi handle this, he is the administrator and I prefer to defer to him on matters like this, but he can't know what or why I did what I did there, so I will comment on that.


You were the first one to use the word "ass".

(02-18-2015, 06:18 AM)tueidj Wrote: You can run around in the street with your pants on your head too, doesn't mean it's a sensible thing to do or that other people will put up with you acting like an ass.

(all quotes are linked, click for context)

Call it "metaphorical" if you wish, but it was a direct inference that you called him an ass. Which is how he took it.

(02-18-2015, 06:19 PM)Dolphy Wrote:

(02-18-2015, 06:18 AM)tueidj Wrote: with you acting like an ass.

The only one who is acting like an ass is you. I posted it in other topics as well (actually confirmed that it broke more things) so devs would fix it as soon as possible and make it a high priority of it because the 5450 update caused a regression.

And so, you reported it, which brought my attention to the discussion. In my badass moderator days, I would have warned you BOTH with points on the spot, with every additional argumentative post as an additional warning. Neither of you should have been calling the other an ass. Maybe I should have warned you all? But honestly, I didn't want to do that, I don't like doing that, and it was very early into the argument, so instead I decided to be nice and give a little lecture to try to diffuse the situation.

(02-18-2015, 09:07 PM)MaJoR Wrote: Btw you may want to know that tueidj is not a "developer" technically. He works on Wii and Wii U console exploits and homebrew, and knows a great great deal about the consoles. That said, he doesn't do anything in Dolphin. He was only given the title because people didn't think what he said was worth listening to because of how he is, even though everything he was saying was correct. To put it bluntly - he's an ass, but he's right!

After I fussed at him for his part in the argument (not quoted, see the link), my goal was to calm him down. I did it by stating some facts, such as clarifying that despite the developer tag, you do not speak for Dolphin in any capacity. This was done to make sure he understood that this was just a person to person disagreement between you and him, and that I was not intervening in the situation because you are a "developer" and he a lowly user. This was especially important since my chastisement of him was stronger than mine toward you. My use of the word "ass" was deliberate, it was for the goal of calming him down since he believed you called him an ass. To be blunt, I knew that you were not about to give the olive branch of an apology (for the misunderstanding) to stop the escalation, and just shutting it down with a heavy hand without any show of empathy or acknowledgement would leave him without any closure. So with your um, brusque attitude in mind, I used the word you used against him while speaking about you to him, in a way that I thought would help calm him. And it worked! He backed down, and apologized for his part.

Note that I used the word ass while saying you are always right, which is a compliment. I had hoped that by affirming you publicly mixed with the insult would alleviate any offense to you. I honestly thought that you'd be proud of being called an ass in that fashion, since the rough and rugged I-don't-care-what-anyone-thinks personality is kind of what you project, and I publicly affirmed it. Apparently that was a misjudgment, as you have never gotten over that.

I have been the cracking the whip style moderator before, simply because in that place I had to be! But I don't want to be that. My goal was the preferred outcome where everyone was happy and calm without any warnings being handed out for it. So I took a chance and tried to calm everyone down without warnings. My use of the word ass was a calculated move, and unfortunately it didn't work out with you. I am sorry that it offended you.



Now, I hope I am not interfering with Shonumi in this, but there is something I want to address. You keep bringing up technicalities of the rules and nitpicking our actions. You are kind of ignoring the bigger picture here. We are the staff here, elevated to this position by the community at large after spending many years here. While we do answer to the community, we are the managers of it, and by coming here you agree to the leadership of the staff.

Our rule system is not a super strict set of rules and counter rules with preset infractions, it is a loose guideline of what the community will not accept, and that's it. The rules are purposefully vague (like the US Constitution ) to allow the staff the flexibility to interpret them as they see fit on a case by case basis. And you know what, we'll make mistakes! We're human! But we are doing the job we were asked to do to the best of our ability, and trying to do it in a way that is friendly and considerate of everyone. It's messy, it's inaccurate, it's vague, but it has heart. All of these slights and grudges that you have built up against us? They are just the result of human interactions. We cannot be perfect! If you cannot give us leeway to interpret the rules and make mistakes sometimes, you are not going to like it here very much, and this is only going to get worse.

[Shonumi]

tueidj Wrote:The user's question (since deleted) was "What is DolphinU?" yet my direct answer was irrelevant? I think you're just making this up as you go, rather than knowing what actually occurred.

The user's original question was "Why hasn't there been a stable release since 2013?" to which you gave an irrelevant and off-topic answer, which in turn prompted the user to ask what DolphinU was. You didn't provide anything significant to the main conversation in either post. Again, if people initiate a sub-discussion within a thread, that doesn't mean those posts are immune from being considered off-topic.

tueidj Wrote:I disagree. Many people remain blisfully unaware of the changes in developers behind the scenes and I was bringing that to light.

That's the thing, you didn't bring it to light there. You "jokingly" made a reference to DolphinU without explaining the meaning at all. You only just now explained yourself here. Instead you made a "inside joke" that was obscure, a bit cryptic, and not particularly informative.

tueidj Wrote:You are actually trying to justify giving a warning for an off-topic post when that post was literally "We don't talk about __OFF_TOPIC_SUBJECT__". That is ridiculous.

You can't change the fact that your posts failed to add anything worthwhile to the discussion, certainly not as they were written. Again, telling users the specific reason why developers are not working on the next stable release would have been acceptable. But you chose to write something else that didn't help Cogito Ergo Sum understand the situation. You did it twice in fact, rather than taking the time to give him any meaningful details.

tueidj Wrote:Even if the following posts refuse to discuss the off-topic subject, apparently

Except you did percisely that. You could have dropped the subject of the DolphinU joke or taken the opportunity to tell Cogito Ergo Sum what you meant and why. None of it was especially helpful or significant to the topic at hand.

tueidj Wrote:And yet you suggest editing a post to remove offending content is acceptable if it's done before a warning is issued. Another case of making up rules as needed to suit the situation. If this is not the case it should be clearly defined in the policy.

There has to be something I can see, with my own eyes. Jimboqaz already re-edited his post, therefore I cannot see what Daco did. The forum software does not log edits or changes in the Mod or Admin CPs. I don't even know if, when, or in what way Daco edited the post. All I know is that Jimboqaz was the last one to touch that post in its present form. This is a case of "he said, she said" unless someone steps forward with the original text and the subsequent edit. No action can be taken against either Jimboqaz or Daco because both have destroyed any evidence of what happened. We aren't making up the rules as we go along; there's nothing that we can do to enforce the rules in this case, unless we all decide it's alright for Daco or Jimboqaz should be banned without any substantial proof.

tueidj Wrote:But still (even until now) left the offending message in place for everyone to see. Isn't that a bit odd since it's such a flagrant violation of the rules?

Again, that's the nuclear option, the same as deleting entire threads. If off-topic talk can be prevented from further taking place after I step in, then it's not necessary to delete them.

tueidj Wrote:Just like new messages posted while composing cannot be seen!

You can refresh the page, and see new posts at the bottom :/ That's half the reason why I use previews.

tueidj Wrote:But my status would have been visible before you started.

Not quite. Unless you changed your status immediately before Winchester7314 posted his "looks like we have a bad-ass" picture (I started composing right after that, to the minute) I wouldn't have seen you. Obviously, I didn't hit Submit until some time thereafter.

tueidj Wrote:Stop being condescending and telling me I should speak up when that's exactly what I am in the process of doing.

I'm telling you that if you become aware of something you want to complain about, bring it up as soon as possible. If you learned of the warning in the past but are only just now bringing up a complaint, it's in your best interest not to do something like that. Note, I'm not chastising you for complaining about something at all, or for something you just learned about fairly recently. But if you've been sitting on this for a while, that's not the way to deal with such issues.

tueidj Wrote:Considering there were more off-topic posts (without any action taken...) I think you failed.

At least those examples (as inane as the actual content was) were more on-topic than your bickering with the OP (which at many points had nothing to do with the topic, even in a joking manner), which is why I, Jhonn, and everyone else let them pass.

tueidj Wrote:Again, I was not aware of the situation because you failed to notify me of it. My attention was only drawn after a following warning was applied. My apparent lack of situational awareness should not be used as an excuse for yours; you are a moderator, it is your responsibility to fulfill your role properly and you failed to do that in an effective way by handing out a warning without making sure it could be heeded.

As I said, there is no formal or informal requirement for Forum Staff to notify users about warnings. As I have also said (thrice now) that Global Forum Rules are going to change in that regard. I gave you a verbal warning in that thread; I felt it was fair enough. It isn't my responsibility to ensure you're on-top of checking 1) other posts made in a thread 2) your user CP, or 3) that little % that accompanies every one of your posts. I will be required to PM you once the rules are amended. But as it stands, I had no role to notify you of anything. You can be as indignant about that as you want, but the situation will be changed, for you and everyone, in a day or so.

tueidj Wrote:It was originally a metaphor which another user then turned into a direct insult. Stated that way I fail to see how you could not see it as an insult, it was definitely intended as such and Major's post unquestionably reinforced it.

As forum staff I expect you to know the difference between personal opinion and facts. Of course people can share the same opinion, but that does not make it a fact. Regardless the rules are quite clear there should be no flaming/harrasment, meaning an uncontroversial statement like "Hitler was a dick" is unacceptable even if everyone is in unanimous agreement that it is true. Slapping a moderator-endorsed derogatory label on someone is completely out of line.

In your view it's a direct insult, but that's not enough to categorize it as "flaming", not by our decision. The tone of Dolphy's post was not deemed to be offensive enough to take any action. It was a bit defensive, however, we decided that statement wasn't anywhere near severe enough to enforce any rule. By our judgement, it's a fairly tame post as far as actual flaming and harassment go. We need to look if that actually constitutes a malicious and targeted effort to verbally abuse a user and if the subsequent level of hostility behind those words (context and tone) is grossly inappropiate. We didn't see any of those. I'm sorry that you felt hurt or attacked, but every perceived slight does not immediately and unequivocally classify as flaming or harassment.

As far as anyone (mods or otherwise) calling you an "ass", I'll just repeat what I said in that post. You come off that way to a lot of people. That's the image you've reinforced around yourself. Don't be surprised if people vocalize it. Whether or not it requires enforcement (as I said above) depends on the severity and tone with which people say it (and the frequency in the case of harassment). No one is constantly heckling you, dropping F-bombs, or laying down ad hominems.

tueidj Wrote:One has to admire the level of sophistication and maturity shown by the staff when they collectively reach the conclusion that calling other people names in public doesn't constitute an insult.

Again, none of us felt it was an insult. The severity and tone, in our view, is relatively harmless as a passing comment (and do note that MaJoR was trying to be light-hearted, perhaps you can't tell though if you don't interact with her as much as the rest of us do). I'm sorry that you took offense to it, but it's simply not something actionable.

At any rate, those warnings are going to stand until they expire in a month. If you feel the rules are too nebulous, too strict, or too haphazardly applied that's fine. We'll try to work with you. But at present, we don't see any compelling reasons to revoke them.

[tueidj]

Mod #1: "Thanks for the tips and making me lol."
Mod #2: "We welcome all discussion and you should raise any issues you have ASAP. Even when you don't know they exist yet. Which clearly wasn't my bad but the rules are being changed so that thing that clearly wasn't my bad won't happen again."
Mod #3: "We're staff, we can do what we want and you should deal with it or GTFO."

Any other mods want to jump in? We might actually find two that share the same view of the situation if we're lucky.

[Shonumi]

We're discussing this in the open because tueidj requested it. Apparently, given his latest misrepresentative comment, I don't think he has any intentions of carrying out a serious discussion here.

[tueidj]

My last post is representative of the lack of co-ordination and consistency amongst the moderation team here. It's not surprising that you wouldn't consider that a serious problem. Here, I'll spell it out for you:

(07-11-2015, 12:24 AM)Garteal Wrote: Thanks for the tips.

Oh and for the record, it was mostly a blast for me to read your posts. ;p

(07-12-2015, 03:26 PM)Shonumi Wrote: I'm telling you that if you become aware of something you want to complain about, bring it up as soon as possible.
[...]
I will be required to PM you once the rules are amended. But as it stands, I had no role to notify you of anything. You can be as indignant about that as you want, but the situation will be changed, for you and everyone, in a day or so.

(07-12-2015, 03:05 PM)MaJoR Wrote: You keep bringing up technicalities of the rules and nitpicking our actions. You are kind of ignoring the bigger picture here. We are the staff here, elevated to this position by the community at large after spending many years here. While we do answer to the community, we are the managers of it, and by coming here you agree to the leadership of the staff.
[...]
The rules are purposefully vague (like the US Constitution ) to allow the staff the flexibility to interpret them as they see fit on a case by case basis.
[...]
We cannot be perfect! If you cannot give us leeway to interpret the rules and make mistakes sometimes, you are not going to like it here very much, and this is only going to get worse.

Note the bold. You're not expected to be perfect but the current staff attitude seems to be that you all already are, even as the forum policy gets modified once again.
I did not agree to any staff leadership when I joined here. I agreed to a set of forum rules which I expected to be enforced with fairness and consistency. I did not expect them to be applied and ignored at the staff's discretion, and I certainly did not expect the staff themselves to be exempt from the very rules that they are meant to be upholding. I can accept mistakes occurring, but you should also be willing to fix them when they get called out; that is what happened in the Star Wars thread and to this day you have still not corrected your post, despite admitting it was an insult and apologizing for offence caused by it - an apology that remains insincere since you refuse to remove the offending content! The same goes for issuing a warning without a follow-up; you're unwilling to admit any wrongdoing but obviously if the policy is being changed to address it you must at least acknowledge that it was a shitty thing to do - otherwise why go to such lengths to ensure it won't happen again?

You guys all need to get on the same page because for a while now, moderation on this forum has been a joke. Except nobody's laughing because jokes are too off-topic.

[Shonumi]

It's misrepresentative because you're paraphrasing things to twist their meanings. For example, this bit right here:

tueidj Wrote:Even when you don't know they exist yet.

is not what I said. I said that if you're aware of things you want addressed, but you don't bring them up in a timely fashion, that's not the right way to go about it. That doesn't mean I expect you to come to me if you don't know about an issue. But that's not the case here. You became aware of the warning I gave you when MaJoR gave you one. That was was over a week ago. Instead, you waited until just now to say anything to me.

tueidj Wrote:You're not expected to be perfect but the current staff attitude seems to be that you all already are

Perhaps in your opinion, but that's your own perception. Simply because we don't think your warnings were issued erroneously does not mean (let alone imply) we think are perfect staff. Else, as you pointed out, why would we change forum policy at all?

tueidj Wrote:I did not agree to any staff leadership when I joined here. I agreed to a set of forum rules which I expected to be enforced with fairness and consistency.

But once you have joined, you're subject to our decisions in enforcing those rules. Those rules don't do anything by themselves, after all. As MaJoR said, there is always a measure of discretion we take when making decisions about how the rules apply to any given situation. This is just how things work, online or offline.

tueidj Wrote:I can accept mistakes occurring, but you should also be willing to fix them when they get called out; that is what happened in the Star Wars thread and to this day you have still not corrected your post, despite admitting it was an insult and apologizing for offence caused by it - an apology that remains insincere since you refuse to remove the offending content!

Again, you took it as a direct insult. However it was not actionable based on the tone, the intent, and the overall level of hostility.

tueidj Wrote:The same goes for issuing a warning without a follow-up; you're unwilling to admit any wrongdoing but obviously if the policy is being changed to address it you must at least acknowledge that it was a shitty thing to do - otherwise why go to such lengths to ensure it won't happen again?

There was no wrongdoing, again because you were verbally warned beforehand (with time to alter your post after it was made), and the policy does not specify whether PMs are required for warnings or not. The policy is being changed because situations like that won't always be the case; people won't always have that sort of forewarning.

[MayImilae]

tueidj Wrote:that is what happened in the Star Wars thread and to this day you have still not corrected your post, despite admitting it was an insult and apologizing for offence caused by it - an apology that remains insincere since you refuse to remove the offending content!

What's the point in even speaking to you when you twist an olive branch into a whip?

I did not "admit it was an insult". Of course you'll just use that as your latest weapon! *sigh* I can't keep doing this. I'll leave it at that, and not comment on this topic any further.

Shonumi... I'm sorry. Good luck...

[Garteal]

(07-13-2015, 02:15 AM)tueidj Wrote: My last post is representative of the lack of co-ordination and consistency amongst the moderation team here. It's not surprising that you wouldn't consider that a serious problem.

You're getting really desperate tueidj, picking out replies out of context and claiming things that you make up in your fantasy, making a fuzz over things that happened years ago and not using common sense when getting warned. You could've just deleted or edited out your post, but no you didn't.

(07-13-2015, 02:15 AM)tueidj Wrote: Note the bold. You're not expected to be perfect but the current staff attitude seems to be that you all already are, even as the forum policy gets modified once again.

It only seems that way to you. What more do you need than a direct reponse from us that we are not perfect?

(07-13-2015, 02:15 AM)tueidj Wrote: You guys all need to get on the same page because for a while now, moderation on this forum has been a joke.

We're all humans with different opinions on things, but we are mostly on the same page when it comes to decisions.

Also I think this should get moved from this thread because this'll probably go on for a bit and we're spoiling the purpose of this thread.

[DacoTaco]

(07-13-2015, 03:25 AM)Garteal Wrote: but we are mostly on the same page when it comes to decisions.

look, i haven't read all of this nor the topics and posts in question since i was gone when most of this stuff happened
but from what i've heard and what i noticed in reactions to things being said/done i really do think that said page you guys are on is not completely wrong, but its... strict and way to damn serious. what is this? the american government?
yes i used to be a joker among the devs/mods/admins (thats just who i am. a joker). But i was a relaxed person doing it well (and respected). did i piss of users? completely, but you will always piss off some ppl anyway.
funny enough, like the joker said in batman : "why so serious?"


over the couple of days ill read this all but something tells me i wont like what im about to read...

[tueidj]

(07-13-2015, 03:13 AM)MaJoR Wrote: I did not "admit it was an insult".

(07-12-2015, 03:05 PM)MaJoR Wrote: I had hoped that by affirming you publicly mixed with the insult would alleviate any offense to you.
[...] My use of the word ass was a calculated move, and unfortunately it didn't work out with you. I am sorry that it offended you.

Don't accuse me of twisting words and fantasy when that is exactly what was said.
Ignoring the fact that what you did is against the rules, I suggest you go look up "negging" - it's a shitty technique used by sleazy guys to pick up girls, involving giving them a put-down at the same time as a compliment. There is plenty of discussion out there (from people more eloquent than me) explaining why abusing someone is not acceptable just because you're also being nice to them.
If you're truly sorry why have you not removed it? You said the purpose was to calm down the other user and it happened months ago - but the post still remains for all to see, a monument that makes it ok for any user of the forum to use the same insult against me since it was "approved" by a staff member. It makes no difference what your intention was, Joe Random is not going to be able to perceive that when he comes across it. He's just going to see a moderator labelling a user an ass and think it's acceptable, possibly shaping all his future interactions with that user around it.

Quote:What more do you need than a direct reponse from us that we are not perfect?

Admitting you make mistakes does nothing to remedy them i.e. actions speak louder than words.
You guys are expected to lead by example. I've shown you two instances where you've failed to do that (Shonumi's Dolphin Pro thread vs. the warning I received for "off-topic" and the Star Wars debacle) and you're completely unwilling to do anything about it. That says to me that you have no interest in making any effort to improve your conduct.