RG/SGSSAA

[Gabbyjay]

No, you got me wrong here.
Like SGSSAA, OGSSAA (4x and 9x) won't look blurry as long as the result is an internal resolution that is higher then your display's resolution.
Remember that the SSAA factor multiplies the internal resolution.
Low resolutions can look rather blurry with AA, and also we're upscaling the image then.

(They really should rename the "2xInternal resolution"-option to something like "2x2 Internal resolution" or "2x/2x Internal resolution", and accordingly for the other factors. Then it would be more clear what is actually happening. Some mouse-over explanations wouldn't hurt either.)


Where OGSSAA is broken, is F-Zero GX in DX9, at least in Dolphin's 4.0 version.
It works on edges, but on textures, no AA seems to be applied at all.

Such issues can always happen in emulation, so it's always good to have alternatives...


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Edit:
Another thing to mention is that SGSSAA also works with coverage samples (CSAA).
For optimal quality, match the number of color samples (and only color samples, not the total with the coverages samples added) to the SS-factor.
This raises edge AA-quality even a little further (how much, depends on the game/scene).


I'm not quite sure if this works for Dolphin's DX11-plugin by enhancing it in the drivers (not tested yet, but it could work).

Also, OGL has built in MSAA with CSAA, but i still have not gotten any answers about the number of color/coverage samples for each option.

[Shonumi]

Gabbyjay Wrote:Like SGSSAA, OGSSAA (4x and 9x) won't look blurry as long as the result is an internal resolution that is higher then your display's resolution.
Remember that the SSAA factor multiplies the internal resolution.
Low resolutions can look rather blurry with AA, and also we're upscaling the image then.

Okay, that explains why 2x IR was blurry, as that resolution is less than my 1080p display.

Gabbyjay Wrote:Where OGSSAA is broken, is F-Zero GX in DX9, at least in Dolphin's 4.0 version.
It works on edges, but on textures, no AA seems to be applied at all.

This is probably neobrain's fault. Anything that's wrong with SSAA in DX9 likely has his name written all over it. NaturalViolence has gotten on his case numerous times, to no avail. I think older, now outdated versions of Dolphin did not have this problem.

[Gabbyjay]

[quote=]This is probably neobrain's fault. Anything that's wrong with SSAA in DX9 likely has his name written all over it. NaturalViolence has gotten on his case numerous times, to no avail. I think older, now outdated versions of Dolphin did not have this problem.



Not sure about the older versions... I read some postings of users that were able to use 4xSSAA in F-Zero GX, but they could have used OpenGL.

Far as i can see Natural has also tried convincing neobrain to include 4x and 9xSSAA in DX11, but there were issues preventing this so far.


I dont like this situation... F-Zero is a great game IMO, but whatever Plugin/Settings i use, i cannot get the optimal performance out of it. Each has it's drawbacks.

If you compare all plugins, it seems DX9 is the fastest in this game in most situations.
(Has nothing to do with AA, i mean the speed of the plugin itself, without any AA).

But DX9 has some compatibility issues (rain on one track) and AA won't work on textures, which is unaccaptable in this game (shimmering and moirees make you throw out!).
DX11 has great quality with SGSSAA, but is awfully slow.
Last, in OGL, you can achieve good great quality at reasonable speeds, but then again SweetFX won't work, which I would like to use.



Edit:
Oh well... perhaps i should not forget to switch back to HLE audio after playing SMG2. lol

[AnyOldName3]

(10-07-2013, 01:44 AM)Shonumi Wrote:

' Wrote:Where OGSSAA is broken, is F-Zero GX in DX9, at least in Dolphin's 4.0 version.
It works on edges, but on textures, no AA seems to be applied at all.

This is probably neobrain's fault. Anything that's wrong with SSAA in DX9 likely has his name written all over it. NaturalViolence has gotten on his case numerous times, to no avail. I think older, now outdated versions of Dolphin did not have this problem.

Neobrain did fix it. He just broke it again within 100 revisions.

On the off-topic subject of minus vs imgur, whenever I'm on Reddit (particularly on my iPod), and I open a gif, and it takes >practically no time at all to load, it turns out to be on minus. Often have to go poking around in the comments to see if someone's reposted it to imgur (there's at least one bot on /r/funny which does this) in order to view it. From my experience, imgur is better. If it was my ISP, they'd both be slow, rather than the ~2000% speed benefit of imgur.

[xemnas]

I wonder why OpenGL only supports 4x SSAA. I think the implementation of 4x SSAA and 9x SSAA should be the same or very similar.

(10-07-2013, 02:09 AM)Gabbyjay Wrote: Oh well... perhaps i should not forget to switch back to HLE audio after playing SMG2. lol

You can use game ini. Between 8x MSAA and 8x SGSSAA, which one is faster? And what about 4x SSAA and 4x SGSSAA? Also, do you use dual-core when you play F-Zero GX?

[Shonumi]

@AON3 - Fixing something then breaking it again = to no avail :p Dunno what else to tell you about minus. No problems over here.

@xemnas - There is an issue MaJoR made on Google Code for SSAA higher than 4x iirc. The issue is being blocked by another issue relating to OpenGL, however. It would be helpful to Linux users, given there are only a few types of AA our drivers can force.

[Gabbyjay]

(10-07-2013, 03:21 AM)xemnas Wrote: Also, do you use dual-core when you play F-Zero GX?

Yes i do; i found a config that works better now.
But the highest settings bring the Geforce Titan too it's knees again at unplayable levels, i have to make compromises but the result is still good.

Quote:Between 8x MSAA and 8x SGSSAA, which one is faster? And what about 4x SSAA and 4x SGSSAA?

Between 8xMSAA and 8xSGSSAA, MSAA is a lot faster, of course (but actually looks like crap in so many games - play F-Zero and you know what i mean : D).
MSAA only applies AA to the edges, while SGSSAA works on the whole image.
MSAA was a compromise they invented cause they thought the SSAA solutions back then were too much of a performance hit and edges were more important at that time.
Today, the situation is a bit different, of course. Edges are still where AA is most visible, but also other areas like alpha tests, high res textures, shader effects and the like are important.
Still, MSAA is widely used to save performance.

4xSGSSAA has similar performance to 4xOGSSAA. People say it has a bit lower performance hit in moste games, but i did not test the 4x mode in enough games on performance to confirm this.
Remember that regarding EER, it's not the 4xSG-masks that competes with the 4xOG-masks, but the 2xSG-mask is actually it's rival.
That is where the name "sparse" actually comes from: Trying to achieve a similar quality with less (sparse) subpixels (which also can result in better quality at the same subpixel numer, of course).

[xemnas]

Thanks for the information.

(10-07-2013, 01:24 AM)Gabbyjay Wrote: Where OGSSAA is broken, is F-Zero GX in DX9, at least in Dolphin's 4.0 version.
It works on edges, but on textures, no AA seems to be applied at all.

Do you know which is the latest revision that SSAA is working correctly?

[Gabbyjay]

Hm no i don't, I'm sorry.

Would like to know this myself, but that could mean a lot of testing as there are so many revisions.

In this game FSAA is really important on the textures.
I would definitely recommend using DX11 or OGL + 4x/8xSGSSAA in this game, if your GPU can handle it. If not, try 2x, it's a nice option too.
DX11 has about the same performance as OGL, but has the advantage that you can inject SweetFX if you wish.

In the meantime, i tested out some settings and was able to get 8xSGSSAA working without any frame drops below 60.

Funny thing is, the CPU (i7-3770K in my case) is too slow sometimes, it will drop to ~55 fps in CPU intense situations.
At least on stock speeds, a little overclocking does the job.


Next thing i wanna provide some examples on is alpha to coverage if there is enough time.

[Gabbyjay]

Yeah, found a popular example about alpha-test-textures: Zelda Twilight Princess.
THE most important thing regarding anti-aliasing of transparent textures is foilage like trees or grass.

The only plugin where you got 4 choices - and so you can adjust image quality to your system specs perfectly, to get steady perfect framerates - is DX11.

There, you can select between the following 4 settings, from bad IQ/best performance to good IQ/worst performance:
1) No AA: For very slow systems
2) MSAA: Smoothes edges only
3) MSAA + SGSSAA on transparencies: Nice compromise - no more shimmering grass + trees, but still some texture shimmering.
4) SGSSAA on the whole image: Same as 3), but more performance needed, as it works on all textures. Texture shimmering is gone now! (Watch the roofs of the houses in the distance, for example)

Note that SGSSAA only on transparencies works only in DX11's plugin.
OGSSAA does not give you the option to work on transparencies only and is also weaker on the edges.
It's best if you try yourself, it's almost impossible to catch all the impacts on screenshots, as you can see the most important effects on textures almost only in motion.

It should also be noted that 8xSGSSAA does a better job on transparent textures then 9xOGSSAA, at lower performance cost.

Also, Dolphin's OGSSAA works only when the internal resolution is set to "auto window size". SGSSAA does not have that problem.