RachelB Wrote:Yes, exactly. Nintendo has yet to make a good controller. The wii classic pro started to go in the right direction, but then when it came time to improve that design, and make something better, for the wii u, they screwed it up.
Well that's your opinion. Like I said the Wii's Classic controller (and the Pro version) needs to have the joysticks lower to make it more comfortable like the PSX style controllers. The GC got halfway there, but went for something XBOX-ish, but the grip is much better for my hands than the Classic or Classic Pro, so it wins in my book.
MaJoR Wrote:Uh no. Sure it looks obvious to us looking back, but at the time NO ONE knew how to make this work. Hence all the crazy weird things trying to sort out how to do it. If it hadn't been for the N64, at the very least, we wouldn't have had proper 3D controls till the 6th gen (gamecube), and that would have dramatically altered the 5th gen itself, placing more emphasis on 2D or 2.5D gameplay, since they could do that. Remember, these decisions were being made in 1995 and had to last till 2001. Six years. If someone didn't figure out 3D controllers we'd have had 6 years of this crap before they had a chance to try again. The N64 controller was a big freakin deal, and gaming would have been changed a ton if it didn't happen.
So by dint of being first, using a crazy design should be acceptable? You're still missing the fact that someone else would have been first. How do we know the DualShock wouldn't have come along anyway? You're playing what-if's and what-if-not's with history just as much as I am. Again, if it weren't Nintendo, someone else would have come along. What's your point that it would have taken longer? It still would have come.
MaJoR Wrote:You mean like this?
Yes like that, except that wasn't their default controller that shipped with every system, quite unlike what Nintendo did, and probably the only chief difference. It was an afterthought (for NiGHTS) rather than a forethought for how the system would be used. If that had shipped (and if the Saturn were, you know, a successful SEGA console) we'd be singing its praises in-place of the N64 and it's controller. SEGA got the timing and emphasis wrong, but they definitely had a chance to make the analog joystick a revolution in 3D gaming.
MaJoR Wrote:Study more dude. Game console evolution is fascinating. You'd be amazed how much THAT controller influences modern designs. Thanks to the cooperation between MS and Dreamcast, the sega design lives on, which in turned influence Nintendo designs.
What do I need to study for? I was there. I played every Nintendo console and handheld since the NES and GameBoy (excluding the semi-recent Wii U). I played the XBOX and Dreamcast with my friends. I own a PS1, PS2, and PS3. Even though I only owned a Genesis, my cousins bought every SEGA console thereafter and let me play it. I saw first hand who did what and when. Yes, I know how influential the N64's controller has been, but you're still singing and dancing about it as if it came from some Holy Land of gaming. Again, somebody had to do it first, that's why we're here today. But that doesn't mean that whoever was first essentially made good or well designed controller. It just means that something (not everything) they did was worth copying; every controller since has stayed away from the quirky design the N64 had for a very good reason.
Being first makes you a trendsetter, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you gave to the public was great or good. The N64 was not a good controller, at least not nearly as good as it could have been. Like I said, you can be the first at something new in controller designs, take your time, and get it right. Nintendo proved it themselves with the Wiimote, and hopefully Valve can do something similar.
MaJoR Wrote:Why do you people hate the 3 grip design? Sure it looks odd, but who cares? All you have to do is not look at it, and you can forget it isn't 2 grip. That's it. Anyone who complains about it being nonfunctional doesn't know what they are talking about. It was perfectly fine. Who cares if "half" the controller is not usable. It doesn't matter what buttons are used, what matters is does it work or doesn't it. Z trigger and joystick works exactly the same as L trigger and dpad, and there's no ergonomic disadvantage. There is nothing functionally wrong with the 3 grip design.
We hate it because it sucks. It not just odd to look at, it's odd to use. If you can't use "half" of the controller 90% of the time you play, either the game developers are missing out on something, or Nintendo made bad design choices. Usually, if the developers don't utilize something in console hardware, it's due to the fact that it isn't worth their time, so I'm laying the fault on Nintendo. Again, the C-Buttons inhibit a lot of camera systems for 3D platforms or 3rd perspective games. The developers just had to deal with it since the buttons weren't going to be as accurate as a secondary joystick. Depending on your hand-size, your hands would be abnormally (and uncomfortably) close together. This isn't a made-up issue; I have friends that won't play N64 games unless it's through an emulator and controller of their choice (or they use a decent 3rd party controller on the original system). That's a very large ergonomic disadvantage.
MaJoR Wrote:What they should have done was trust in the joystick but keep the dpad around, in a design that was, well, like a gamecube controller! Or a classic controller pro! But that's us in our 8th gen world talking about 5th gen design considerations. They didn't know what we know. And so the mistake happened. Instead of saying the obvious things of what we would do with all our superior 8th gen knowledge, what we should be doing is analyzing what they did and why they did it.
Being first isn't an excuse for poor designs. End of story. Sure you can experiment, but the N64 controller (though it had its reasons) was a generally poorly designed controller. It only took Sony 1 try to get (imo) the best controller design I would use for any game, in the same generation as Nintendo. It didn't take the insight of 2014; they did it in 1997. Yes, they were more than likely influenced by Ninetndo, but Sony took just as many risks as Nintendo (I mean come on, a second joystick on all your controllers now sounds par for the course to us, but back in the day it was unheard of, as was using joysticks as buttons which in prolific today) but it really worked. Sony got something that has been working for almost 4 hardware generations now; Nintendo is still all over the place (GC controllers, Wiimotes, Wii U pads, Pro and Classic Pros...) One can argue they still don't know what they're doing.
MaJoR Wrote:The joystick problem was not something that QA could discover. It requires years of friction. I suppose a machine could have worn it down over many months, but sometimes you just have to get it out into the wild before problems appear. That said, Nintendo did create a superior plastic version for the atomic controller set, which improve this issue greatly. But meh, damage done by that point. Plus Nintendo themselves weren't entirely enthusiastic about the joystick thing. The dpad was there invention, patented, that defined them as a video game company. To say they were hesitant to abandon it as their primary control method is an understatement.
I'm not referring to the white residue that comes from joystick use, I'm talking about generally using the controller in games. Again, not being able to use half of the controller looks like poor designs to me. They could have easily spent the time making a better fallback solution that incorporated both the dpad and the joystick than the 3-prong design. The N64 controller has been controversial for years for a reason; people didn't like it. If they had spent the time testing why people wouldn't like it (focus groups...) they could have made something that was just as revolutionary and likeable.
MaJoR Wrote:It holds six AA batteries. There is absolutely no way that gamepad was going to exist without grips.
The Game Gear says hi.
They could have, and it's even more plausible when you consider that the VB controller doesn't need the additonal space and weight of a dedicated screen.
MaJoR Wrote:Who cares what it looks like?
What it looks like affects how people play it (unless shapes play no role in how people hold things :| ). At any rate, I never said it was detrimental to gameplay, just unnecessary, which it is.
MaJoR Wrote:The grips fill his hands just fine, without ever leaving his palms or reaching his wrists. Still ugly though.
It still suffers from a similar problem as the N64 ergonomically (hands too large? They'll be bumping and cramping into the batteries...) A rounded out bottom would have 1) encased the batteries and 2) pushed the hands further from the batteries.