Feature Request: HDR support!

[MayImilae]

[linkdude64]

Perfect reply I friggin love that series so much.

[Zexaron]

The quote that a picture can tell a 1000 words is proving to be a lot bigger deal than ever thought.






That's what you call an instant deconfuser.

Also no more YCbCr ... with Rec. 2100 things will be in ICtCp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICtCp

Pretty much most of the old stuff is going to get obsolete, so the learning process should not wait.

https://vimeo.com/176095324

Sadly the full presentation from Dr. Sean McCarthy on The Power of Color from 2016 Cable-Tec expo doesn't exist on the web, or just too hard to find.

(05-23-2018, 10:56 AM)AnyOldName3 Wrote: i.e. it doesn't define a specific bit depth that you have to use, instead letting you choose between two options. The paragraphs immediately following this don't say that 12-bit covers a wider colour space, so I read it to mean that they both cover the same colour space.

Well, let's remember the whole thing is a recommendation, not a requirement, that's what Rec. stands for. That's how things are right now, you get a panel with big differences between manufacturers, price ranges, none of the consumer TVs and monitors are professionally calibrated either, ofcourse as the technologies and pipelines mature you eventually get most stuff 99.9% conforming with the standar... err recommendation. These things are recommendation because you'd see a lot of companies go out of business, it's super demanding consumer business which forces Samsung to use panel lottery, which means, you have a 40-60% chance that when you buy an average TV you might get a panel that's a lot crappier than what you paid for, that's because Samsung's suppliers can't produce so much fast enough they have to go to crappier suppliers to meet consumer demand, extremely deceptive and borderline criminal practice because you can't know that until you unpack and actually disassemble it or peek through the ventilation holes for the labels internally, because the external TV's basic model name is exactly the same, I think only the premium models don't have panel lottery.

The early new hardware will be again the wild jungle, you'll only have like 80% Rec. 2020 gamut conformance, I think there was one some months ago presented at some event I think.

EDIT: There we go, one samsung is just above 80% on uv but 76% on xy - they don't have the marketing for Rec. 2020 WCG so they use this "100%" thing and in the small text it says it's about DCI-P3 so there you go.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/wide-color-gamut-rec-709-dci-p3-rec-2020

https://www.samsung.com/us/televisions-home-theater/tvs/qled-tvs/65-class-q7f-4k-smart-qled-tv-qn65q7fnafxza/

[Zexaron]

There we go. Looks like the highest certified luminance by Vesa to this date is 1000 nits. And things get separated into "Center Peak" max luminance and "Full Frame" max luminance, similarly to the response times being different depending on how big the color change is in one update.

So there is no one HDR, there's many and many more steps will there be before the numbers are reached observed in real life.


https://www.techpowerup.com/244492/philips-436m6vbpab-monitor-gets-displayhdr-1000-certification

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12144/vesa-announces-displayhdr-spec-and-tiers

https://displayhdr.org/performance-criteria/

https://displayhdr.org/certified-products/

So it's pretty much a gimmick at this point, it would become interesting once things reach 5000 and above. That doesn't mean Dolphin needs to wait, if this is remotely possible to hack into GC/Wii games, prep work can start now, you would be ahead of the curve and figure things out properly without rush. It's a lot of work tho, pretty much all textures would have to be redone, so I'm hoping custom texture people understand this and, while it's really hard for them to take this seriously because of the dillema.

If someone had the capability, the people doing texture work right now would be able to future proof it, it would probably require professional equipment, which already has at least 10-bit, but not sure if that would be enough.

[Helios]

Or we can ignore everything you said because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I like that idea.

[Zexaron]

Then you are also able to share where exactly I was wrong? Did they thought all of this would one day be possible back when they started Dolphin in 2003?

What's so bad about being enthusiastic. Doesn't that encourage development? I think such challenges provide enjoyment in the end and while developing, just like ubershaders.

[mstreurman]

(05-29-2018, 07:36 AM)Zexaron Wrote: Then you are also able to share where exactly I was wrong? Did they thought all of this would one day be possible back when they started Dolphin in 2003?

What's so bad about being enthusiastic. Doesn't that encourage development? I think such challenges provide enjoyment in the end and while developing, just like ubershaders.

Nobody is holding you back from the joy of development Zexaron, you can create PR's for Dolphin yourself and have as much fun with it as you want, as long as your code is up to standards and it is not a "hack" it will probably get merged at some point.

[Kolano]

So the main issue with the premise here is that in most cases HDR output requires HDR input, and GC/Wii titles don't come with any. I guess it may be possible to provide such through texture replacement.

Additionally, and likely more critically, the inputs/outputs of arbitrary shaders would need to account for HDR content. It's complicated to work out which / where shaders can be revised and still provide appropriate/similar outputs. It would require generating something similar to the current ubershaders at a minimum, and it's is likely difficult to avoid HDR processing messing up numerous effects, likely requiring significant additional per-game configuration.

So I don't know. Perhaps as a first step one could work out HDR texture replacement, and down-sample everything fed through anything but the basic rendering shaders. Though that's likely of minimal impact without all the other shader revision, which likely requires more work than anyone will invest.

Side note, it always irks me a bit when people point to the "difference between light and dark" as a feature of HDR. Contrast actually seems fairly unrelated to HDR and we saw greater contrast independently from HDR support. The primary advantage of HDR is the ability to display things like blue skies and other subtle gradients without noticeable color banding. Various shader processes can further exacerbate such banding, which HDR shaders help with.

[Rare White Ape]

In my limited experience, I understand the biggest hurdle to HDR implementation is the fact that the original artists didn’t specify HDR colour and luminance values when the games were originally made. We would have to rewind 15+ years to when the games were being developed just to know what the original vision of the designers was.

If you look at games released in the current generation, even games on Xbox One and PS4 Pro with patched 4K support don’t feature HDR. Doom and Titanfall 2 come to mind. To enable it, the developer would have to go back to square 1 in the art asset development pipeline, as well as the game engines themselves, and remake every relevant asset for the HDR spec. Every texture and special effect would have to be re-written.

The best that we could hope for if Dolphin supported HDR would be a tone-mapped implementation, which simply covnerts the original 100 nits presentation into a 5000 (or was it 10,000?) nits colour space, similar to the way that the TV series Planet Earth II combines true HDR source footage with footage taken from SDR GoPros, drones and cheaper cine-cameras. I do believe that there would be almost no benefit to users if this was a feature.

[Zexaron]

(05-29-2018, 04:45 PM)mstreurman Wrote: Nobody is holding you back from the joy of development Zexaron, you can create PR's for Dolphin yourself and have as much fun with it as you want, as long as your code is up to standards and it is not a "hack" it will probably get merged at some point.

Heh, sure, but it's better that I release my uncontrolled enthusiasm here rather than on github. Ehm, I am trying not to do that anymore, I understand that it can be annoying.