Dolphin 4.0

[Starscream]

delroth: When someone has a different point of view, all you can say is "he doesn't know what he's talking about", then you try to remove that person from the project. Then, you complain that "he isn't doing anything" right after you've made him leave. You don't inspire people to help out (at least not me), seeing how every time I open my mouth I seem to be disconnected from IRC. Tell me you're not able to realize this? Cursing at people, telling them that they can be replaced and that their opinion doesn't matter, what kind of shit is that? Is that sort of thing appropriate where you're from? Do you act that way at your real life job, because I seriously doubt that you do.

Anyway, do what you will. Bump out long time members/contributors and destroy more of what Dolphin what built on. I guess that's what you were planning to do anyway.

[delroth]

Having a different point of view does not mean that your point of view is right. It can be different, but completely wrong and misled. But still, for the sake of the argument, let's say I'm completely closed to discussing different point of views. Can you provide me a link to a forum thread, or logs from an IRC discussion, where I'm talking with someone who does know what he's talking about and I say "he doesn't know what he's talking about"?

Same for your second point: link me to somewhere I complain about someone "not doing anything" after making him leave. Your case does not count since you weren't doing anything except sometimes testing in the last 3 months (you stopped updating documentation since I moved it to the wiki - not that you stopped complaining about it though, MaJoR can back me up on you complaining about the performance guide all the time and never going to fix it yourself). If you are making such a broad statement about me, surely you can quote another example than yourself.

I don't curse at people at my real life job, or when interacting with other Dolphin devs, because I respect my coworkers. There is a fairly small group of people I know who have definitely earned my respect. You're not part of it. I don't consider someone who complains all the time and gets nothing productive done one of my coworkers or someone I should respect.

By "bump out long time members/contributors", who are you talking about, excluding you? I don't like to boast too much, but as far as I know I've helped attract more new contributors than I "bumped out" old people. Example: MaJoR is now working with us on documentation and helps a lot with testing, and I think I had a good part in making him contribute more directly to the project. I think I also helped get kostamarino back helping us after he left, by explaining him what was wrong with his changes and how he should have proceeded (we had a fairly long email discussion about this and he seemed fairly comprehensive and accepted to remove all his -1s after I explained).

Note, once again, something important: my statements include factual data (examples, quotes, explanations about how I think, etc.). Your statements are broad generalizations without any specific example, mostly talking about me instead of giving specifics about things I've done wrong. Why should anyone take your opinion seriously when you're not able to provide any verifiable fact that proves your statements?

[RachelB]

I can confirm delroth has encouraged me to work more on dolphin, just by being really awesome.

[Starscream]

I have to at least make an attempt to save DX9, because no one else is going to. If that is something you can't deal with, I don't know what to tell you.

The fact is that you're getting all geared up to remove the fastest video backend. You can keep it around (one way or another), but you choose not to. This is not someone "not knowing what he's talking about". This is someone realizing that you just don't feel like it, it's too much trouble, and you just don't care. Nevermind the fact that you're going to raise the Dolphin system requirements for a lot of people and nevermind the fact that people have been working on that plugin since you were running around in diapers, or that there are people who have invested a lot of time into that backend, you don't even have people in place who are willing to work on making DX11 better. All I hear is "we're going to do this and it's going to be so much better for the other backends", but the reality is that there isn't going to be anyone to work on DX11. There has been only one person who has really touched DX11 during the past year, and he's already said that he has no plans on doing anything with it now.


As far as other issues, I won't get too detailed and mention any names, but I've been on IRC for a long time, and I see how some of the other people act when you've got your mind set on something. They won't even mention it again, and they will just agree with you for the sake of argument because they realize you will end up going off on them eventually. It won't be long until the name calling will start and the kicking will start if they keep on. I've realized this on a number of occasions, and it's a bit sad. You're going to have people who don't agree with you in life, you either listen to what they have to say and respect them, or don't put them in positions of having a say in the first place.

[ExtremeDude2]

But from what I can tell it won't be the fastest backend once it is removed

[RachelB]

Quote:This is someone realizing that you just don't feel like it, it's too much trouble, and you just don't care.

Yes, exactly. If someone were willing to maintain it, there's no reason we couldn't keep it. That's the problem.

[delroth]

I'm sorry, where are the links and/or logs I requested? Can't you quote any specific example of me driving people off Dolphin? That's really surprising since you were affirming it so strongly before!

Quote:You can keep it around (one way or another), but you choose not to.

Find one single developer who agrees with keeping D3D9. Even Rodolfo considers the D3D9 backend deprecated nowadays (since it can't support early Z forcing).

Keeping D3D9 is a question of tradeoff, and while measuring that maintainability/immediate win tradeoff might be difficult for nonoh,-developers, anyone with a clue about programming can see why we're not keeping the compat if we're rewriting most of VideoCommon. Its programming model is very different compared to D3D11/modern GL, forcing us to work at high level of abstractions.

And before you say "oh, now that you explain it I understand!", we've been repeating that same thing for months, even in this thread.

[JMC47]

I'm really sick and tired of saying D3D9 is the absolute fastest back-end. It's simply not true for a lot of people. OpenGL's vertex streaming features make it comparable to or faster than D3D9 in a lot of games.

One of my friends helped me out with testing and benchmarking back-ends on three different GPUs to see what was faster where. The intent of the benchmark was to see which GPUs were better in which scenarios. What we ended up learning was the OpenGL on a NVIDIA card is faster than D3D9 in almost every scenario. Take a gander if you have some time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkEUvobPn_DcdDA5NDNaOE1MQ3hYM0YtQ3Q1RW1yY3c&usp=sharing

[Starscream]

(09-03-2013, 10:48 AM)delroth Wrote: I'm sorry, where are the links and/or logs I requested? Can't you quote any specific example of me driving people off Dolphin? That's really surprising since you were affirming it so strongly before!

Other than myself, I'm not listing names. Either accept what I've said or just disregard it.

(09-03-2013, 10:48 AM)delroth Wrote: Find one single developer who agrees with keeping D3D9. Even Rodolfo considers the D3D9 backend deprecated nowadays (since it can't support early Z forcing).

Yeah, it wasn't hard to make him give up on his argument. "Here, rodolfo, I've just added 20 new issues and have assigned them all to you (some new, some old) that you have to fix within a very small amount of time, otherwise, DX9 will be removed". Yeah, that was a fair thing to do to the guy. I'm sure he really appreciated that and it was something that he would have been able to achieve very easily. As if those kinds of tactics would have worked with anyone else, and you would have just snapped your fingers and it would have been all done immediately.

Feel free to close this thread or leave it open when you're done, as I don't have anything else to say about this.

[delroth]

(09-03-2013, 11:18 AM)Starscream Wrote:

(09-03-2013, 10:48 AM)delroth Wrote: I'm sorry, where are the links and/or logs I requested? Can't you quote any specific example of me driving people off Dolphin? That's really surprising since you were affirming it so strongly before!

Other than myself, I'm not listing names. Either accept what I've said or just disregard it.

I'm so surprised that you weren't able to quote specifics. "accept what I've said"... what about no?

(09-03-2013, 11:18 AM)Starscream Wrote:

(09-03-2013, 10:48 AM)delroth Wrote: Find one single developer who agrees with keeping D3D9. Even Rodolfo considers the D3D9 backend deprecated nowadays (since it can't support early Z forcing).

Yeah, it wasn't hard to make him give up on his argument. "Here, rodolfo, I've just added 20 new issues and have assigned them all to you (some new, some old) that you have to fix within a very small amount of time, otherwise, DX9 will be removed". Yeah, that was a fair thing to do to the guy. I'm sure he really appreciated that and it was something that he would have been able to achieve very easily. As if those kinds of tactics would have worked with anyone else, and you would have just snapped your fingers and it would have been all done immediately.

Feel free to close this thread or leave it open when you're done, as I don't have anything else to say about this.

Point by point:

• Only one person cares about the D3D9 backend in the development team, and it's Rodolfo. That's why he gets auto-assigned to all D3D9-only issues. If you think that's a special case, I get auto-assigned to all DSPHLE issues because I'm also the only one who cares about these. Nobody usually complains about issues if they care about their code - they're a good way to track progress.
• What led D3D9 to be marked deprecated by rodolfo wasn't the number of D3D9 only issues (some could be fixed, some could not) but the completely inability of D3D9 to emulate properly some Flipper features. D3D9 has to use the old earlyz hack because the API does not provide support for the feature.
• You seem to say that I was the most active proponent for the D3D9 backend removal when I'm actually not - I'm happy about it but I don't touch the videocommon/gfx backend part a lot during my normal work. If you look at the "D3D9 TODO list" issue, both neobrain and degasus provide lists of missing D3D9 features too.
• Since we started tracking D3D9 only issues, only one got fixed, and not by Rodolfo. There is litteraly 0 work going on in the D3D9 backend even though it's buggy.

You seem to be unable to accept any rational argument. I'll let you believe that I'm a dictator and that D3D9 removal is another random decision then, since you think that's all I'm capable of doing.