Comic Industry History Discussion (90s)

[ZLRK]

Currently trying to read Reinventing Comics by Scott McCloud.

Reached a chapter where it briefly talks about comics history during 90s, and stumbled with a part that I'm simply not being able to fully understand very well. I know it's a relatively unknown book so I could post just a screenshot to give context (hope I'd not be breaking any rules...), but... the edition I have is in Spanish...

So question is, is there by chance anyone knowledgable in Spanish language and western comics in general? Or anyone who happened to have English version of the book?

Thanks very much beforehand.

[Shonumi]

My Spanish (reading comprehension that is) isn't too shabby. As for western comics... well, I've read every single issue of Sonic The Hedgehog (Archie Comics) + Special Issues and spin-offs up to ~2011, for what it's worth...

[ZLRK]

@Shonumi:

Ah, sir!! Thanks beforehand!
And, by the way, after hard searching in internet I managed to find an extract of the book in English. It covers almost all the concerning context I need help with, except for last page which I had to take snapshot from the Spanish version. So in nutshell I had to "build" the whole extract as this: first pages in the link below, last -spanish- page in attachments. But all pages are consecutive.

Ok, context is as follows:
Chapter opened talking about the known horror stories many comic creators lived with the big publishers: no copyright retaining, misserable share of the whole profits, etc. Some creators began to make -unsuccessful- negotiation attemtps with publishers in order to improve conditions, some others such as Neal Adams began to form freelancers away from mainstream publishers, and this seemingly starts the generational changes.
So book extract begins here:
https://momentofcerebus.blogspot.mx/2014/08/scott-mccloud-eighties-generational.html
The page that would be next (and the final one from the extract) is in attachments.

So finally, the part I'm asking for help to understand is comprised by the last 2 pages of the *whole* extract, i.e., last page of the above link and page in attachments.

By the way, seems that the mentioned Bill has it's own page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator%27s_Bill_of_Rights

Again, thanks very much for your help. I tried to explain myself the best I could. Sorry for the mess...

EDIT: better had attachment deleted. Thanks.

[Shonumi]

Here's my best translation of the attachment:

Quote:At the beginning of the 90s, the fight for author's rights inside the mainstream world appeared less urgent; there were too many alternatives, as if tying them up in an abusive contract.

The generation of artists before mine have since fought for their rights inside the mainstream world.

My generation has employed the threat of the "alternative" press.

But in the 90s, many young progressive artists had left behind those battles without showing any interest in contract work and the comic assembly line, both assumed their creative rights.

It aesthetically resulted in a positive movement, a milestone of a generation more enslaved by the potential of an art form than by the manuevers of conflicted factions.

But long term it might end up being their Achilles heel if things go south...

...and the alternative editorials continue fading.

The landscape of the comic industry continually changes. Authors will adapt, as they always have done, "to stay in the game". Although the underlying principles to the movement of author's rights will remain for quite a while.

If one loses the memory of these battles, maybe they will lose future battles as well

[ZLRK]

@Shonumi:
Ok, I'll admit once and for all that yesterday I was mentally not in the best shape due to a number of circumstances better left unknown. Aside of serving as some pretext, it'd explain why I was not able to explain myself.
First, thanks for the translation good effort, it may turn things easier now. But what I wanted was not a translation at all; I'm well knowledgable in Spanish language, and by the way, only your first line would need correction:
"During early 90s, the fight for author's rights inside the mainstream seemed less urgent; there were too many alternatives to even think about tying up in an abusive contract."
With so many alternatives, who would want to tie up with a big publisher contract?
What I wanted, and still want, is help in understanding the whole idea... comprised by the last 2 pages of the *whole* extract, i.e., last page of the above link and page in attachments.

For example, I do get what author means with the "greedy speculation" that fueled the 1992 comic boom, but... how/why did creators' rights become a "market force"? What was this "progress" thing about? And finally regarding last page of the extract (the one in attachment, which now has been translated here), I could not get at all what the heck was happening according to author. "Alternative press"?? What kind of movement were young artists holding back then that resulted both positive and negative? Why would alternatives be fading!?

Perhaps I should have specified I was looking for someone knowledgable in comics, but the "historic" part, not the fiction.

Again, thanks beforehand.

[Shonumi]

ZLRK Wrote:What I wanted, and still want, is help in understanding the whole idea... comprised by the last 2 pages of the *whole* extract, i.e., last page of the above link and page in attachments.

Oh, okay, I didn't know you wanted help with analyzing the ideas behind those two pages. I thought you just wanted a translation to help you make your own analysis.

ZLRK Wrote:by the way, only your first line would need correction:

Heh, that's all? Well, here I was, thinking I'd mangled up the entire thing Better than I expected, since I don't actually use my knowledge of Spanish much, if at all, and I suck with vocab + idiomatic phrases.

ZLRK Wrote:but... how/why did creators' rights become a "market force"? What was this "progress" thing about? And finally regarding last page of the extract (the one in attachment, which now has been translated here), I could not get at all what the heck was happening according to author. "Alternative press"?? What kind of movement were young artists holding back then that resulted both positive and negative? Why would alternatives be fading!?

I'm going to take a stab at helping you analyze comic industry history. I was just a kid back then, so the following is just my educated guesses based on some quick research. I'd imagine creator's rights became a viable market force once artists started forming or joining creator-owned publishers (Image Comics). Additionally, some artists were popular enough to get editorial control of their own series while still being print under more established publishers. So in these two ways, some artists took control of licensing and creative control, but perhaps more importantly they altered the power balance between themselves and their publishers. However, in the context of the last two pages, I think Scott McCloud is saying that the subject of author's rights focused more on economics than on other, higher ideals, e.g. allowing artists to advance an art form without publisher interference.

I think "progress" means the general direction everyone agreed the industry was supposed to be heading. In the 90s, there were simply multiple ways "progress" was heading in because there were so many diverse interests or "factions" pulling the industry. McCloud doesn't mention any specifics probably because it isn't important (to him at least) to enumerate them all. The important takeway is that the industry changed from having a rather monolithic point of view of where to go (the 80s) versus a less clear outlook in the 90s. Whereas the previous generation had only one road to go down, suddenly the 90s have a bunch of different roads, and not all of them lined up with each other.

I gather the "alternative press" would be independent publishers or creator-owned publishers, or maybe just publishers that aren't linked to Marvel/DC, but I can't say for sure. I think McCloud is trying to tell us that some artists wanted nothing to do with the movement of creators rights, especially after it seems to have played a role in the fractured path the industry wanted to pursue in the 90s. Rather than start caring about things like that, they just wanted to make an aesthetically pleasing art form, and apparently they delivered that. However, McCould obviously views that as troubling. On one hand, yes, it made some great looking art, but sacrificing creators rights to do so could potentially bite artists in the ass later on. After all, the movement for creator's rights was meant to solve a problem in the relationship between artists and publishers, and abandoning those rights (or the fight for them) effectively fails to solve a problem. Of course, perhaps those young progressive artists simply didn't view it as a valid problem, but that isn't McCloud's viewpoint, as suggested in the last panel of the last page. At the very least, he's cautiously against abandoning those rights and those "battles".

Sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I'm probably full of crap, but I thought I'd attempt to help. Maybe try someplace like Comic Vine if you get the chance.

[ZLRK]

@Shonumi:
Thanks sir!!
Though it's not your expertise area like you said, thanks for the big effort again. It certainly helped quite much.

I as well re-read the last 2 pages -several times-, and with what you explained, I may finally have a clearer idea about the whole deal. yet, I feel there are still some few holes.

So, pressumably as part of the struggle of the time, top selling creators gathered and formed Image Comics. But I have heavy problem interpreting this line:
"Image Comics proved wildly successful, but confounded purists who saw creators' rights as deeply intertwined with comics' higher aspirations".
WTH with this?

Then after this, the idea seems to be the one you already mentioned: somehow subject of author's rights focused more on economics than on other higher ideals (aesthetics). Then more creators were joining the "revolution", more companies were created, andeventually the market force with an obscene number of different fracturing factions.

Quote:The generation of artists before mine have since fought for their rights inside the mainstream world.
My generation has employed the threat of the "alternative" press.

Finally got the catch of this (which was simpler than thought): both generations were fighting for their rights, but each one in different ways. Previous generation did by attempting to change mainstream world from within; author's generation by leaving the mainstream and going independent, thus becoming the "alternative press threat".

Quote:But in the 90s, many young progressive artists had left behind those battles without showing any interest in contract work and the comic assembly line, both assumed their creative rights.
It aesthetically resulted in a positive movement, a milestone of a generation more enslaved by the potential of an art form than by the manuevers of conflicted factions.
But long term it might end up being their Achilles heel if things go south...
...and the alternative editorials continue fading.

Certainly, seeing that the whole creators' rights thing was becoming more of yet another problem (fracturing factions, etc) instead of a solution, it'd be understandable some artists didn't want to know anything about it. But, "assumed their creative rights"? How is that? In what other way would they survive in the comics media?
Your guess was "probably they simply didn't care". But still, why would alternative editorials continue fading? Due to constant fighting?

By the way, may I suggest to change topic's title to something more suiting? I'd leave title to your -admin- judgment (and besides users here don't seem to have privileges for changing topics' titles). In best case it could perhaps drag some other users, luckily one being knowledgable about comic industry history...
By the way, still thinking about your Comic Vine advise.

Again, thanks very much.

[ZLRK]

Excuse me... hello?

[Shonumi]

Sorry, I'm kind of busy with work, so I couldn't respond in a timely fashion. I'm still kind of preoccupied, so I can't help further analyze anything. I'll be free tomorrow though. Until then, I changed the title to something more appropriate.

[ZLRK]

@Shonumi:
Thanks sir. By the way, have you been able to find little spare time by any chance?